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Old 1st June 2010, 09:49 PM
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davo davo is offline
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Default Re: An Omnipotent and Omniscient god is logical : Lion IRC vs Davo

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My fundamental claim is that Omniscience and Omnipotence are related. Whether there is a theological implication is secondary. But we need not assume the only Omniscient/Omnipotent being is God.
I am not making any claims, other than an omniscient and omnipotent god being is illogical, as per the topic.

But ok I will state any being claimed to hold both those properties is illogical too.

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Omniscience IS a very accurate state. It really does mean the ENTIRE theory and corpus of knowledge.
Agreed.

Point of request :

An omniscient being knows all future and past facts. This means these facts are unchangable, as the omniscient being already knows that they would change it and to what, it's omniscient, the 'sum of all knowledge'.

The existence of this being would be immutable, unchangable. This being would be powerless to change the future. The only way it could change the immutable knowledge it has of the future would to not be omniscient.

But not being able to change the future, would mean that this being was not omnipotent.

How is a being that is both omniscient and omnipotent possible, let alone logical?

Please show us the reasoning you are presenting. The logic.

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The only way a logical positivist could find out if God is Omniscient is to keep asking Him questions about everything into infinity.
There is no need to find out. This is over the logic of such a being existing. My or anyone elses ability to 'find out' the truth of this is irrelevant. Please show how my knowing if a being is omniscient is relevant to it being omniscient or not.

I will point out right here, if you are saying you cannot find out unless you ask, it is not logical to claim that such a being exists against all the logic issues with the claim in the topic presented so far that you just fail to confront. At all.

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Davo says “To 'access knowledge' you have to know of the knowledge” and I need only respond by asking what part of the word “Omnipotent” implies “need to…”. What Omnipotent Being is forced by a non-omnipotent - under what duress?
What? I am not forcing anything. I am asking directly how such a being can logically exist. This has nothing to do with me, but it.

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Any declaration about God being “compelled” repudiates the very foundation of your case because you are no longer talking about God.
I'm not 'compelling' it anything. I am stating, again, that the claim that a god is both omniscient and omnipotent, is illogical. I have presented arguments and you fail to confront them.

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Knowledge has a fundamental ethereal quality that it there to be used and it is dynamic not static. This stands to reason because knowledge itself is transitory. Our own database of knowledge continuously changes with time. We interact with knowledge. We consume it and we generate it.
But we are not omniscient.

Point of request : Please show how it is logical to know everything, the sum of all possible that could be known, as well as be all powerful, and for example, do something that you didn't already know you were going to do.

Please show me the logic I am missing in this argument. I'm waiting.

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We observe dynamic omniscience in the ability of the actual Being which possesses that knowledge DIRECTLY from the related and corresponding dynamic omnipotence of that Being.
Point of request: Show me the evidence you are presenting here or withdraw the statement. This is effectively Begging the question

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The relatedness and mutual interdependence of Omnipotence and Omniscience is such that ONLY an Omnipotent Being could logically posses all knowledge.
Point of request : show the actual evidence for this or withdraw your statement.

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The claimed paradox at the Iron Chariot wiki should read….How can an Omnipotent Being NOT possess all knowledge?
Are you saying it's powerless not to be dumb? :P

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If there were two contenders for the Title of Omnipotent being we would as a matter of plain logical positivism and empiricism seek to ascertain the extent of their respective ABILITIES.
Irrelevant. There is no need for us to seek to ascertain this. If your position is logical, it would be independant of what I knew.

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How the hell can an Omnipotent Being NOT possess all knowledge?
I'd be very carefull refuting you whole attempt at some(?) sort of an argument in one sentence. Are you saying it is powerless to be otherwise?

I will leave you with a thought, can this all knowing being suprise himself?

oh and just for you, a quote from Abelard, if he was around today I wonder if he would still think the same with regards Limbo? hmmm

By doubting we come to inquiry; and through inquiry we perceive truth.
--- Peter Abelard
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Last edited by davo; 1st June 2010 at 09:52 PM. Reason: DAMMIT stupid quotes remove whole slabs of text, please use standard FONT and don't mark things up