Go Back   AFA Forums > News and Social > Off Topic

Off Topic For anything that doesn't fit anywhere above.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 2nd April 2016, 08:07 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,644
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Thank you Strato sorry for the derail. i know its dreadful with this guy.
when a State becomes personified then its really getting dangerous.
of course there are other evil actors or actions of States among the nations of the world but i agree Kasparov looks like a compellinv read.
Thank you for sharing
__________________
"I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11th April 2016, 12:39 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,644
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Quote:
wearestardust said View Post
I think that Pilger piece is a piece of garbage non-journalism. As usual.
I do not agree that John Pilger's normal work is rubbish, as for example this piece exposing chronic food insecurity in remote indigenous communities,

https://newmatilda.com/2016/04/10/ut...little-secret/

This article of course requires it's own thread and the topic itself is just shocking.

Referring back to your criticism of the article by Pilger about Putin, yes I agree it is hard to read an article providing any kind of justification to the Russian president under whose rule the murder of journalists in Russia for example has skyrocketed. But Pilger is attempting to write about the world as it actually is and while I may not agree with his analysis he is presenting another point of view, which is the point of view of many of the people who support the Russian seperatists. And then we should not lose sight that while there may be democracy within America for some its tenticles do reach out and kill many innocent people in other parts of the world.

Quote:
I had avoided reading it when I first saw it on the NM site, but due to this thread I read it.

It relates to the reason why I get uptight, sometimes, about atheists (or, more often, my fellow lefties) making stuff up in their arguments. He raises serious issues, very serious issues, but wraps it up in nonsense which subordinates the actual problems and makes the whole thing prone to dismissal out of hand.

To pick three things along various axes on nonsense. The Obama administration has spent lots of money on its goals of non-proliferation and reduction of nuclear weapons by other states.
Not quite correct. The US aims to prevent proliferation to North Korea and Iran. I have not looked into it but neither have I heard of any program to prevent refinement of the nuclear arsenals of Pakistan and India.

Quote:
One may well be concerned, with good reason, about the redirection in the last year of funds from non-proliferation programs to refurbishment of the existing stockpile at very high cost - or about the refurbishment and lack of reduction in the US stockpile. But the suggestion that Obama has gone on a nuclear weapon shopping spree is nonsense. ...
And a little detail, but illustrative of the quality, or regard for facts, in his research: the B-61 mod 12 is just the latest version of a weapon that's been around since 1968, and the upgrade with the current version is a better guidance package. It's also not the only weapon of that size.

Lazy? Deceitful? Mischievous? All of the above?
The notion that the US would simply tell us and it's own citizens what it is doing is probably a bit overly trusting. I would find it amazing if the U.S. was not frantic to avoid losing it's nuclear weapons and indeed whole battlefield superiority by the further development of both its deterrent arsenal (i.e. unthinkable to use nuclear weapons) and development of "usable" nuclear weapons.

Quote:
The characterisation of matters on Russia's western borders as being one of US aggression is staggering nonsense.
Evidently there are ethnic tensions in these areas of the countries of the former USSR and that is the way that many of the ethnic Russians feel in those areas. While it is apparent that Putin has not helped put these tensions out but has rather helped them explode, it is also true that the west has supported Ukraine in the war unequivocally. Certainly tens of millions of people, mostly Russian of course, do actually see it that way. We may not agree with the analysis but we should not dismiss it as staggering nonsense, even if it is opinion.

Looked at from the old perspective of Imperial interests, the US ensures its interests are maintained through such measures as the invasion of Iraq, unequivocal support for the Saudis, Israel, and to some extent the Ukraine. On the opposite side of the coin Russia is also seeking to protect and expand its imperial interests.
__________________
"I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11th April 2016, 03:11 AM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,119
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

I'm not keen on this democracy is good when it suits us and bad when they elect someone we don't like format of geopolitics.

Personally, I think Putin's a problem that Russians need to resolve, but they by and large don't appear to consider him a problem.

However, I think that we should robustly defend ANY attempt by ANY nation state to annex land using military force, economic sanctions, and any other method. If the world had turned and threatened Russia with war if it didn't withdraw from Ukraine, Putin would've backed down.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11th April 2016, 10:21 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,644
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Can we be sure of that?
__________________
"I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11th April 2016, 11:34 AM
142857's Avatar
142857 142857 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,198
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Quote:
Spearthrower said View Post
I'm not keen on this democracy is good when it suits us and bad when they elect someone we don't like format of geopolitics.

Personally, I think Putin's a problem that Russians need to resolve, but they by and large don't appear to consider him a problem.

However, I think that we should robustly defend ANY attempt by ANY nation state to annex land using military force, economic sanctions, and any other method. If the world had turned and threatened Russia with war if it didn't withdraw from Ukraine, Putin would've backed down.
Robust democracy is good.

Putin's version of democracy, where the public are fed propaganda and lies by the media, where journalists who try to present a more balanced view have a tendency to die in terrible ways, is anything but robust, and well deserves any criticism it receives.

(That said, democracy in countries like Australia is not nearly as robust as it used to be IMO).

As for whether Putin would have backed down: If a coalition of powerful countries had threatened war against Russia then Putin is very likely to have called their bluff. In which case you either have WW3 or a humiliating backdown by that coalition.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11th April 2016, 12:47 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,119
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Quote:
142857 said View Post
As for whether Putin would have backed down: If a coalition of powerful countries had threatened war against Russia then Putin is very likely to have called their bluff. In which case you either have WW3 or a humiliating backdown by that coalition.
Putin can't both be highly intelligent and an idiot. He took advantage of a situation when no one was ready to respond. The cost was essentially nothing. Had there been serious stakes to annex Crimea, the cost would have far outweighed any gains and he'd have needed to be an idiot to do so.

I think this is the only way we can move forward as a global community. We aim always for peace, but if some tyrant arises that seeks to lop off bits of other countries, we need to stand together. No nation can hope to withstand a coalition of the other major players. Even with our lame response, Russia's in dire economic trouble as a result of their actions.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11th April 2016, 02:17 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,644
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Quote:
Spearthrower said View Post
Putin can't both be highly intelligent and an idiot. He took advantage of a situation when no one was ready to respond. The cost was essentially nothing. Had there been serious stakes to annex Crimea, the cost would have far outweighed any gains and he'd have needed to be an idiot to do so.

I think this is the only way we can move forward as a global community. We aim always for peace, but if some tyrant arises that seeks to lop off bits of other countries, we need to stand together. No nation can hope to withstand a coalition of the other major players. Even with our lame response, Russia's in dire economic trouble as a result of their actions.
The history of the world is littered with wars that were unanticipated by one side or the other and there is no reason to assume that the future will not also be so littered.

One can't say with certainty that one should or should not use force in any particular circumstances because the outcomes are always so unpredictable. If we are not prepared to intervene say in Sudan or even possibly also South Sudan, or Congo, or the Republic of Congo, or Syria, on what basis would an intervention be justified in Crimea or Ukraine, with at least the threat of nuclear war as a consequence?
__________________
"I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11th April 2016, 05:35 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,119
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Quote:
wadaye said View Post
The history of the world is littered with wars that were unanticipated by one side or the other and there is no reason to assume that the future will not also be so littered.

One can't say with certainty that one should or should not use force in any particular circumstances because the outcomes are always so unpredictable. If we are not prepared to intervene say in Sudan or even possibly also South Sudan, or Congo, or the Republic of Congo, or Syria, on what basis would an intervention be justified in Crimea or Ukraine, with at least the threat of nuclear war as a consequence?

But that's not my position. My position is that we should ALWAYS be prepared to respond in force to a nation seeking to annex territory. Then a newly-minted tyrant will know that if he wishes to engage in such behavior, he'd best be able to take on a coalition of the rest of the world.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:07 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,644
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Quote:
Spearthrower said View Post
But that's not my position. My position is that we should ALWAYS be prepared to respond in force to a nation seeking to annex territory. Then a newly-minted tyrant will know that if he wishes to engage in such behavior, he'd best be able to take on a coalition of the rest of the world.
Yet they have nuclear weapons with ICBMs. it is very difficult to ensure that any war remains limited.
__________________
"I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11th April 2016, 08:36 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,119
Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

Quote:
wadaye said View Post
Yet they have nuclear weapons with ICBMs. it is very difficult to ensure that any war remains limited.

I think most modern nation states would war without even considering deploying nuclear weapons. It's only crackpot ideologies that welcome mutually assured destruction.

This again goes back to what I was saying: Putin's not an idiot, and he's not a ideologically motivated crackpot. He snatched the Ukraine in a manner that made it impossible to initially know that Russia was involved, then it was all done and dusted before anyone even got round to responding. It was a calculated move, and it was clever.

But had there been a cost to doing so - the threat of war with multiple major nations - I don't think he'd have been stupid enough to do it. And it would have been stupid. It would have cost the world's powers, but it would have cost Russia much more.

Otherwise, why didn't he just send in the tanks?

Last edited by Spearthrower; 11th April 2016 at 08:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 02:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.