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  #1  
Old 30th July 2015, 06:30 PM
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Default Rebellion

Praying the sinner's prayer and getting converted is about surrender, self subordination, accepting a characterisation of yourself by the one leading you in the crime of capitulation of your common sense, as a hopeless sinner in need of Christ right now.

Then you later get told what your opinion is to be on all the important subjects and that to question is rebellion and that leads to apostasy, the unpardonable spiritual state. You are told Lucifer became Satan, after he led the angelic rebellion in heaven where a third of the angels followed him and were cast out with him, to become the demons, and they have real power and influence to induce a rebellious spirit within your soul.

You also have to believe in creationism now. Duped. What a silly thing to have allowed to happen to you. This can go on for years.

It takes rebellion to get yourself out of the morass of delusion and horrible taboos and having to associate and identify with people who don't value the intellect. Of course daring to indulge critical thinking, plain common sense against the tenets of the system, theological doctrines and teachings, will result in you soon enough realising there actually was no God to rebel against.

Reclaiming your autonomy and your intellect does require some daring and rebellion initially, if you have been an indoctrinated believer for some time. Fellow believers will put up resistance. One gets shunned.

Over on christian forums there are poor sods repenting of their rebellious thoughts and attitudes and reconsecrating themselves and getting all the support they need. Pathetic really.

Obviously I sold out but I eventually rebelled and engaged reason and thus soon revoked my completely unnecessary salvation.
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  #2  
Old 30th July 2015, 08:18 PM
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DanDare DanDare is offline
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Default Re: Rebellion

Do you find it hard to talk about?
Are you angry about the way it was?
Is that why you go to the sites and try to work on them?
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Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

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  #3  
Old 30th July 2015, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: Rebellion

No Dan, I don't obsess about this. If things are sometimes a little quiet around here where I much prefer to browse or engage, I might look into christian forums where, on Creation and Evolution, there are some very articulate and informed individuals variously plugging away explaining genetics, for instance, and know their stuff, wanting to share it there.

And then it's the Christians striving to defend creationism. To capitulate is unthinkable. Many are rather mean spirited. The place is as busy as a bee hive, mostly Americans I would think.

I found myself reflecting on the edict against rebellion, how conscious and brave defiance, thought crime is often going to have to be the way to begin deconstruction of the edifice, in the face of God, the cosmic thought policeman, for most of those on that forum, as representative of the mental life of true believers.

I had thought to write the above post over there, but I thought to put it here, where some browsing believer might even see it and reflect. Rebellion from indoctrination is healthy, often how one's autonomy is initially reclaimed and then cherished all the more.
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Old 31st July 2015, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: Rebellion

Excellent.

To be moved away from indoctrination, I think, requires a step more than presentation of alternative views. It needs the presentation of alternate methods of thinking. A move away from acceptance and authority to investigation and questioning perceptions. Very hard.
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"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
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  #5  
Old 31st July 2015, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: Rebellion

Cheers, Dan. I was thinking the word is revolt.

It does arouse me from my slumber to look into christian forums and see this implicit exultation of obedience, confessions of rebellion and exhortations to repentance and discipleship, deposing the prideful self as lord of one's own life and enthroning Christ. All rather formulaic.

They have their counselors at the ready to get you back on the straight and narrow, or to contextualise your problems in terms of being in God's will, living the holy life.

It is abject, degrading, puerile. I guess humans have this need for belonging.
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  #6  
Old 2nd August 2015, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: Rebellion

Quote:
Strato said View Post
No Dan, I don't obsess about this. If things are sometimes a little quiet around here where I much prefer to browse or engage, I might look into christian forums where, on Creation and Evolution, there are some very articulate and informed individuals variously plugging away explaining genetics, for instance, and know their stuff, wanting to share it there.

And then it's the Christians striving to defend creationism. To capitulate is unthinkable. Many are rather mean spirited. The place is as busy as a bee hive, mostly Americans I would think.

I found myself reflecting on the edict against rebellion, how conscious and brave defiance, thought crime is often going to have to be the way to begin deconstruction of the edifice, in the face of God, the cosmic thought policeman, for most of those on that forum, as representative of the mental life of true believers.

I had thought to write the above post over there, but I thought to put it here, where some browsing believer might even see it and reflect. Rebellion from indoctrination is healthy, often how one's autonomy is initially reclaimed and then cherished all the more.
It's been years since I engaged at CF, though I spent several years there through various restructurings, purges, mass deletions, and owners.

At one point there were two creation and evolution forums, one in which atheists were permitted and one in which only Christians could debate. Both were interesting to read, since there are plenty Christians who accept evolution entirely. There was, oddly, not much member crossover between the two subforums.

yes, it is mostly Americans and some of the creationists are very nasty, mostly because the mods are lax about letting them get away with it while coming down hard on atheists and even theistic evolutionists - or that's how it was when I was around.
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  #7  
Old 2nd August 2015, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Rebellion

A veteran in whom there is no guile.
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  #8  
Old 9th November 2015, 04:47 PM
tmorg tmorg is offline
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Default Re: Rebellion

Quote:
It takes rebellion to get yourself out of the morass of delusion and horrible taboos and having to associate and identify with people who don't value the intellect. Of course daring to indulge critical thinking, plain common sense against the tenets of the system, theological doctrines and teachings, will result in you soon enough realising there actually was no God to rebel against.
I really enjoyed this Strato and I agree with you that you have to rebel somehow. By the way, rebellion is not getting a tattoo, piercing or a new haircut. It is having the courage to feel and stand up for what you believe in. The pressure is relentless, internal and external, to conform to societal and familial norms. I, personally, am finding life so difficult right now because once you decide to live your life on your own terms and consciously feel, everyone you know abandons you. People want you obedient and not free to feel and think and be yourself.
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  #9  
Old 9th November 2015, 05:02 PM
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stylofone stylofone is offline
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Default Re: Rebellion

I remember the sheer drug-like ecstasy of rebellion when I was finding my atheistic feet in a Catholic boarding school in the 1970s. Then at university I remember a conversation with a fellow atheist, who had been raised with no religion and had never set foot in a church. He was an atheist with no rebellion in his past, atheism was just the status quo for him. It had never occurred to me that this could be a thing, and I envied him. So I loved my rebellion, but I also felt a kind of wonderment at the possibility of a life where rebellion would be redundant.

Wind the clock forward, and it's immensely satisfying to have raised my children with no religion, nor any compulsion or expectation that they would share my beliefs. Which is not to say they haven't been rebellious at times, but not the way I was compelled to be!
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  #10  
Old 10th November 2015, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Rebellion

Yes tmorg,

One is subjected to alienation, even shunning. That is overtly perpetrated in the Jehova's Witness cult but I think unavoidably this is the experience of all ex believers who were embedded in church fellowship. Especially those who come to openly declare their identification as atheist. One wears the mantle of a dangerous agent. You will be discussed, warned against by elders and all. Christian parents will be ashamed, even appalled.

But it only gets better and better.

New friends aren't necessarily going to want to hear about your years as this Christian. They can't relate to it. Such disclosure is awkward. It doesn't necessarily implicitly reflect well or is appreciated that what you did in coming out is very cool and makes you interesting, even worthy of some emulation. What value does one place on the mental life?

You can pay an understanding, skilled psychologist to listen and help. And that's always much to be recommended. The dividend one gets from reading popular science and scholarship is orders of magnitude above the time and effort put into attentively reading it. So many brilliant writers too. I think if you abandon the faith and its tidy formulaic system of teachings, you have to replace all that with new understandings, which you can appreciate all the more for it, personally and intellectually.

This Forum is a an inestimable good. Perhaps people who really need to are reading this very thread and all the others. Maybe some will even connect in time. It happens.
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