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  #171  
Old 19th November 2017, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

The quote was taken from a campaign speech given by Ralph Nader when he was running against George W Bush and Al Gore in 2000.

Given that he was trying to drum up support for himself as a 3rd candidate, Nader was obviously more interested in tarring Bush and Gore with the same brush than in presenting a more nuanced view.

As it turned out, Nader's bid for the presidency undoubtedly cost Gore the election. Bush's presidency was a disaster. His government's attempt to tackle extremism in the Middle East ended up creating far bigger problems and costing an enormous number of lives. His unfunded tax cuts were another ideologically driven piece of stupid.

I'm strongly against lesser evilism. I will start another thread on it. In this case, though, lesser evilism might have been a good idea.

Back to the meme. Yes, it's bollocks if you read it as the "velocity with which their knees hit the floor" being the one and only difference between the two parties. And on that basis I completely accept Blue Lightning's criticism of the meme.

If your brain looks at the context of the quote and subconsciously parses it as "When the corporations knock at their door, at that moment the only difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor" then it's a different story. But that's not really how it was stated.
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Last edited by 142857; 19th November 2017 at 08:57 AM.
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  #172  
Old 19th November 2017, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

Whilst i'm completely on board with the need to rethink and reevaluate our core ideological beliefs (in fact update them completely) i think the type of blanket rejection of contemporary political culture in Australia smacks of fantasy utopianism. Worse, there's an element of abusing the guards that keep you safe at night.

There are very immediate policies that could be enacted by either of our two big parties that would make a tangible difference. Stopping the Adani mine, reeling in corporate tax evasion, initiating public discussion on universal basic income, increased funding to public education, pushing for more renewable energy etc...To abandon all this because neither major party suits some imagined utopian society is, to my mind, infantile.

Lets also not forget that liberal democracy, in its many and varied forms, has produced unparalleled wealth, security and, yes, equality - from a macro-historical perspective. The freedom to express detestation for the political culture you inhabit is because of liberal democracy. Now, i'm well aware of its problems, one of the main ones being the thread topic but dismissing 400 odd years of enlightenment thinking for a utopia is to fail to distinguish between babies and their bath water, in my opinion.
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  #173  
Old 19th November 2017, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

Quote:
142857 said View Post
The quote was taken from a campaign speech given by Ralph Nader when he was running against George W Bush and Al Gore in 2000.

Given that he was trying to drum up support for himself as a 3rd candidate, Nader was obviously more interested in tarring Bush and Gore with the same brush than in presenting a more nuanced view.

As it turned out, Nader's bid for the presidency undoubtedly cost Gore the election. Bush's presidency was a disaster. His government's attempt to tackle extremism in the Middle East ended up creating far bigger problems and costing an enormous number of lives. His unfunded tax cuts were another ideologically driven piece of stupid.
Nader, IMO, overshadowed what might otherwise been seen as a lifetime contribution as activist for various worthy causes by becoming a wrecker in that campaign. There's much, IMO, that he said and in that campaign that was destructive. Beyond a certain point in time, his continued candidacy, IMO, was wholly destructive. Now, instead of his career as an activist advancing progressive causes, I think of him as a limited, indulgent fool who bequeathed a dark and harmful legacy.

You've already mentioned one part of Nader's toxic legacy: the extravagantly unethical Bush tax cuts. Nader's legacy was especially harmful when it comes to the environment. He kept Al Gore out of the White House, which led to enormous delay in taking steps to address climate change, both within and outside of the US. Both of these aspects of Nader's legacy are causing ongoing harm in the real world, to this day.

These things are now his legacy because they were readily foreseeable at the time of his candidacy. In that sense, he brought them about. It was widely predicted by media and pollsters that it would be a close election, Nader personally expected that it would be a close election, and it was a close election. Nader's candidacy was both calculated to, and bound to, split the Gore vote. Nader must be taken to have assessed that the completely obvious risks, particularly to the environment and other-than-super-wealthy people, that a Bush victory was likely to bring, and to have decided that running the risk of Bush's election was worth it. It's on that basis that we should assess his legacy.

As to the second Gulf war – that was far less foreseeable, although it was causally connected to Nader's actions. If Trump starts some major war, we will not be able to say the same of those who stayed at home and didn't vote for Clinton.

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I'm strongly against lesser evilism. I will start another thread on it. In this case, though, lesser evilism might have been a good idea.
I'm astounded that you would think that a case as extreme as Bush v Gore gets close to what I would infer from the use of “lesser evilism”. Still, you might have something in mind that is different to what I conceive when I read that term. I'll try to keep a look out for your thread.

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142857 said View Post
Back to the meme. Yes, it's bollocks if you read it as the "velocity with which their knees hit the floor" being the one and only difference between the two parties. And on that basis I completely accept Blue Lightning's criticism of the meme.


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142857 said View Post
If your brain looks at the context of the quote and subconsciously parses it as "When the corporations knock at their door, at that moment the only difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor" then it's a different story ...
Far from all brains are likely to eisegete the meme in that way.

In the real world, these types of memes (as pipbarber has just observed ) are harmful.
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Last edited by Blue Lightning; 19th November 2017 at 12:44 PM.
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  #174  
Old 19th November 2017, 04:17 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

If a person is completely against the system, they should recognise that participation in that system does to some degree legitimise it.
Principled abstention from flawed processes is undertaken often enough in the real world to show that particpation in flawed and systemically or even systematically rigged systems is not obligatory.
I agree BL with your analysis that to continue to participate without any hope or expectation of success was simply a spanner in the works, and agree that the spanner only had an impact against the more progressive candidate.
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  #175  
Old 20th November 2017, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

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wadaye said View Post
If a person is completely against the system, they should recognise that participation in that system does to some degree legitimise it.
Principled abstention from flawed processes is undertaken often enough in the real world to show that particpation in flawed and systemically or even systematically rigged systems is not obligatory.
I agree BL with your analysis that to continue to participate without any hope or expectation of success was simply a spanner in the works, and agree that the spanner only had an impact against the more progressive candidate.
My problem with the issue of participation legitimizing the thing is that if I stopped participating the only place in the world I could live would be on a deserted island in a Kingdom with a population of just me. The reasonable alternative is to participate but actively work to fix the problems you see, but I'm too lazy for that. Instead I've chosen to just voice my concerns on random internet forums and hope no one calls me out on my lack of courage to go fight for things. ;-)
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  #176  
Old 21st November 2017, 10:08 AM
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

Linky - Vice.com

Exploring the Empty Mansions of Melbourne's Richest Suburb

Welcome to Toorak, where investors buy multi-million dollar properties and never move in.

Quote:
While walking around I got thinking about the 100,000 people across Australia are currently homeless, while giant places like this crumble. And then there’s the fact that investment properties like these are helping exacerbate Australia’s housing unaffordability. Walking around an abandoned mansion in Toorak, at a time when home ownership is an impossible dream, really makes you feel you’re being screwed.
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  #177  
Old 21st November 2017, 12:32 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

Quote:
The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
Linky - Vice.com

Exploring the Empty Mansions of Melbourne's Richest Suburb

Welcome to Toorak, where investors buy multi-million dollar properties and never move in.

Quote:
While walking around I got thinking about the 100,000 people across Australia are currently homeless, while giant places like this crumble. And then there’s the fact that investment properties like these are helping exacerbate Australia’s housing unaffordability. Walking around an abandoned mansion in Toorak, at a time when home ownership is an impossible dream, really makes you feel you’re being screwed.
More@Source
The tax breaks are all there for maximising the value of a freestanding dwelling out of all proportion. CGT does not apply to the family home so its the greatest tax rip off this century. It should make the rest of us who go to work and pay tax for the privilege feel stupid for letting these shysters shit on us.
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  #178  
Old 23rd November 2017, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_hFIuf-Q3U

Recent video of Chomsky. Exposing strong links between the rise of neoliberalism and rising inequality.

Skip the first few minutes until Chomsky comes on. I did and I didn't feel like I missed anything.

(how do you embed youtube videos on this forum?)
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Last edited by 142857; 23rd November 2017 at 10:19 PM.
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  #179  
Old 23rd November 2017, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

I hate Chomsky. Classic example of an ideological thinker. No different to Abbott. Just a different angle. Useless for the 21st century.

[YOUTUBE ]insert the code after the = sign[/YOUTUBE]
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  #180  
Old 24th November 2017, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Why income/wealth equality is getting worse

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pipbarber said View Post
I hate Chomsky. Classic example of an ideological thinker. No different to Abbott. Just a different angle. Useless for the 21st century.

[YOUTUBE ]insert the code after the = sign[/YOUTUBE]
Thanks for that. I tried all sorts of combinations of how I embed youtube videos on other forums, but nothing worked.

The father of modern linguistics vs. the father of the endlessly repeated 3 word slogan? One of the greatest living intellectuals (some say the greatest) vs. the budgie smuggler guy? I dunno, I'm leaning towards Chomsky as being someone worth listening to.

Have you spent much time listening to Chomsky, or have you been exposed to some cherry-picked (by his opponents) pieces of text or talks that he has given? I'm happy to go through and give you some start-and-finish points for particularly interesting pieces of that lecture, so that you don't have to sit through the whole thing? I know that you are actually very open-minded and balanced, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
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