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  #91  
Old 20th November 2017, 03:22 PM
Wrenn Wrenn is offline
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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David Nicholls said View Post
Wrenn, just out of interest and assuming you have bags of money. Would you pay handsomely to have sex with a virgin of your choice? If yes, can you explain that choice thanks. If no, then why no?
I would not because I am asexual and have no interest in sexual activity with another person, I don't place any value on virginity and finally I'm a minimalist so even if the other two issues weren't relevant at best I'd probably pay a few hundred which would be a waste of everyone's time.

I find nothing wrong with a man wanting to buy or a woman wanting to sell virginity, as long as we have done our best to ensure all of the concerns that have been raised have been addressed.

To address the other side of the question, I'm a 46 year old virgin and I would sell my virginity for considerably less than $3.9 million. Though that's a fairly pointless fact given that I'm a man who can't really imagine what it's like for a woman in that position.
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  #92  
Old 20th November 2017, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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Wrenn said View Post
So far, no one has provided any evidence of the first part of your claim.

Is a desire to have sex with a virgin a necessarily bad act? I can see how past history might have tainted the question, but I don't think it is a bad desire by definition. I think that labeling people who have this desire as a misogynist, arsehole or pedophile is factually wrong, unless you have information we do not, or can provide evidence that the act is inherently bad.
I think all this has been said but placing value on female virginity is by definition, sexist at best and misogynist at worst. Desiring to have sex with a totally inexperienced woman or man is not a choice I would make. Like Billy Connelly said: "The very thought of 53 fucking virgins, it's a nightmare! It's not a fucking present, it's not a prize - it's a punishment! Give me two fire-breathing whores any day of the week! I'm a slut man!"

Why doesn't this chap have sex with a non-virgin and pay for it inordinately.

Wrenn, just out of interest and assuming you have bags of money. Would you pay handsomely to have sex with a virgin of your choice? If yes, can you explain that choice thanks. If no, then why no?

David
I don't expect that you will get it, but this post has a much sexism as the men you think are being sexist.



EDIT: I suggest having a long think about why before replying.
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Last edited by workmx; 20th November 2017 at 03:32 PM.
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  #93  
Old 20th November 2017, 03:46 PM
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David Nicholls David Nicholls is offline
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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I would not because I am asexual and have no interest in sexual activity with another person, I don't place any value on virginity and finally I'm a minimalist so even if the other two issues weren't relevant at best I'd probably pay a few hundred which would be a waste of everyone's time.
Wrenn, we have to assume this story is about two heterosexual people although they may not be. Womenís virginity is steeped in social and religious myth and practice. Religion uses it (take the Virgin Mary as an example) to show we are all sinners. (A Virgin Joseph never came up) Some religions actually enforce the virgin idea with death if transgressions occur. Culturally, the virgin bit has possibly its roots, so to speak, in a male hoping his genes will be the ones passed on. It is well known now that that is not always the case even in Ďmonogamousí partnerships. Some cultures are fanatical about it. It is a rampant worldwide situation.

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I find nothing wrong with a man wanting to buy or a woman wanting to sell virginity, as long as we have done our best to ensure all of the concerns that have been raised have been addressed.
It is a fair bet considering the locations involved that religious and/or cultural implications are involved. Maybe, if both adults had no baggage driving them to this contract then it could be OK for someone to buy anotherís virginity. But one has to ask, why would anyone without baggage wish to do this?

Quote:
To address the other side of the question, I'm a 46 year old virgin and I would sell my virginity for considerably less than $3.9 million. Though that's a fairly pointless fact given that I'm a man who can't really imagine what it's like for a woman in that position.
Sorry, even a small amount is well beyond my means.

David
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  #94  
Old 20th November 2017, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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workmx said View Post
I don't expect that you will get it, but this post has a much sexism as the men you think are being sexist.



EDIT: I suggest having a long think about why before replying.
Could you explain that workmx beyond it being a statement.

By the way, I have already stated there is some sexism in most of us.

David
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  #95  
Old 20th November 2017, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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David Nicholls said View Post
Wrenn, we have to assume this story is about two heterosexual people although they may not be. Womenís virginity is steeped in social and religious myth and practice. Religion uses it (take the Virgin Mary as an example) to show we are all sinners. (A Virgin Joseph never came up) Some religions actually enforce the virgin idea with death if transgressions occur. Culturally, the virgin bit has possibly its roots, so to speak, in a male hoping his genes will be the ones passed on. It is well known now that that is not always the case even in Ďmonogamousí partnerships. Some cultures are fanatical about it. It is a rampant worldwide situation.



It is a fair bet considering the locations involved that religious and/or cultural implications are involved. Maybe, if both adults had no baggage driving them to this contract then it could be OK for someone to buy anotherís virginity. But one has to ask, why would anyone without baggage wish to do this?



Sorry, even a small amount is well beyond my means.

David
Well, technically men can't be virgins, because they get to "know" their mother in the biblical sense on the way out at birth!

Culturally [which can of course have biological evolutionary consequences] the virgin thing may have had a role. However, I think the risk of STD's and marriage may have evolved primarily as a defence against parasites and pathogens.

Genetic parasites, particularly of the segregation distorter type, can hit populations very hard. On the other hand, incest has not been that common as a strategy to avoid male-killer type pathogens [like Wolbachia that infest insects].
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  #96  
Old 20th November 2017, 06:51 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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Mjt said View Post
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wadaye said View Post
...




No. It is a purportedly legal contract for the sale of sex, 'first sex', to be precise. Of course only a beast of a legal system would enforce such a contract. Consider if the girl hears a rumour that the purchaser has syphilis and HIV, suppose also they didn't determine the terms of the contract and she insists that he wears a condom but finds her understanding to be unenforceable? Suppose that he keeps her passport when he flies her to where-ever to enforce the 'deal'? There is a lot that can go much more wrong than the simple payment of money. Who would pay for the child if there is a pregnancy? Would he force her to have an abortion, or to not have an abortion? What about his other wives if they object and fight her? What if he has a handful of trafficked slave children? Can she back out at the bedroom door?



However empowered this girl feels she is, she is by this agreement submitting to the notion that she is only a woman and accepts that she will be treated as such. Agreements such as this are only the tip of a much more dangerous iceberg that involves the trafficking of minors for sexual exploitation.



Personally I believe that if prostitution is to go on it should be both legalised and regulated in such a way as to establish clearly enforceable rights for the women involved in it and to exclude underage minors from being exploited in this way.


As you say, this is a contract for the sale if sex. Like so many others that happen every day.
However empowered she feels? She is submitting to the notion?
So is this the case for every female sex worker? They are just submitting to the notion they are only women and will be treated as such?
From what I can see, and I may be missing something, this is an adult woman. She has made a choice that she is happy with. The whole thing has no more to do with trafficking minors than any other activities within the legitimate sex industry do.
As to the man, we know nothing about him. Certainly not the things you have suggested. To suggest these things bothers me greatly. Many men pay for the type of sex they want, with women who are happy and confident to supply a service. It doesn’t make them dodgy as all fuck.
Some women are happy to sell sex. The regulated industry you speak of is alive and well. The trafficking of minors is a totally separate issue, and has no place in the discussion of this adult woman’s choice.


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Hi Mandy
While I agree with most everything that you post here on this forum and admire you as a human being, I do not see things at the moment in quite the same way as how you have expressed here.
"Submitting to the notion that she is only a woman..."
If I sell a car the contract may be enforced. If a woman sells a future act of sex can it really be certain that she can still have free and informed consent at the time of consummation? (The word is apposite in the context). In the end what is enforced or possibly enforceable in some parts of the world is that she has to submit herself as an object for the man. And we don't know if she really is 19. In relation to the question of whether the legitimate sex trade has anything to do with human trafficking, I would say that of course it does. Sure there are confident people out there who may sell sex in a safe environment and feel that it is ok, but the industry itself, as well potentially as the purchasers, are involved in a business which has a notorious underbelly of abuse.
I do not criticise the women who feel compelled to work in this industry. They are victims.
What I object to is the entire socio economic and national systems which enforce poverty, inequality, inequity, iniquity, and present too many women with no options but to sell themselves in some measure. The reductionist notion that a human can be purchased for money is ultimately in my view wrong, and inextricably linked with the evils of trafficking.
The online sale is not even necessarily part of the safer parts of the industry. If that is ok, then what about a young Somali woman selling herself for a handful of dollars in Mogadishu. Sure we should not criticise her and would be evil if we did, but the criticism must fall where it belongs, on those who exploit the power imbalance to enact their fantasies on women's bodies.

Edit: my criticism is only partly for the individuals that utilise this power imbalance in their own favour to gain breeding rights (sex). I reserve a much greater hatred for the political economy which enforces such a system
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Last edited by wadaye; 20th November 2017 at 06:59 PM.
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  #97  
Old 20th November 2017, 07:47 PM
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Goldenmane Goldenmane is online now
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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David Nicholls said View Post
Goldenmane, I said, "You can be a complete irrelevant bore, you know." To which you replied:
Quote:

That would be a personal attack, David, which is against the forum rules, and I'd have thought experience might have been the tutor, given history.
Yes is was over the top and I apologise.

David
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  #98  
Old 20th November 2017, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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wadaye said View Post
Quote:
Mjt said View Post
Quote:
wadaye said View Post
...




No. It is a purportedly legal contract for the sale of sex, 'first sex', to be precise. Of course only a beast of a legal system would enforce such a contract. Consider if the girl hears a rumour that the purchaser has syphilis and HIV, suppose also they didn't determine the terms of the contract and she insists that he wears a condom but finds her understanding to be unenforceable? Suppose that he keeps her passport when he flies her to where-ever to enforce the 'deal'? There is a lot that can go much more wrong than the simple payment of money. Who would pay for the child if there is a pregnancy? Would he force her to have an abortion, or to not have an abortion? What about his other wives if they object and fight her? What if he has a handful of trafficked slave children? Can she back out at the bedroom door?



However empowered this girl feels she is, she is by this agreement submitting to the notion that she is only a woman and accepts that she will be treated as such. Agreements such as this are only the tip of a much more dangerous iceberg that involves the trafficking of minors for sexual exploitation.



Personally I believe that if prostitution is to go on it should be both legalised and regulated in such a way as to establish clearly enforceable rights for the women involved in it and to exclude underage minors from being exploited in this way.


As you say, this is a contract for the sale if sex. Like so many others that happen every day.
However empowered she feels? She is submitting to the notion?
So is this the case for every female sex worker? They are just submitting to the notion they are only women and will be treated as such?
From what I can see, and I may be missing something, this is an adult woman. She has made a choice that she is happy with. The whole thing has no more to do with trafficking minors than any other activities within the legitimate sex industry do.
As to the man, we know nothing about him. Certainly not the things you have suggested. To suggest these things bothers me greatly. Many men pay for the type of sex they want, with women who are happy and confident to supply a service. It doesnít make them dodgy as all fuck.
Some women are happy to sell sex. The regulated industry you speak of is alive and well. The trafficking of minors is a totally separate issue, and has no place in the discussion of this adult womanís choice.


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Hi Mandy
While I agree with most everything that you post here on this forum and admire you as a human being, I do not see things at the moment in quite the same way as how you have expressed here.
"Submitting to the notion that she is only a woman..."
If I sell a car the contract may be enforced. If a woman sells a future act of sex can it really be certain that she can still have free and informed consent at the time of consummation? (The word is apposite in the context). In the end what is enforced or possibly enforceable in some parts of the world is that she has to submit herself as an object for the man. And we don't know if she really is 19. In relation to the question of whether the legitimate sex trade has anything to do with human trafficking, I would say that of course it does. Sure there are confident people out there who may sell sex in a safe environment and feel that it is ok, but the industry itself, as well potentially as the purchasers, are involved in a business which has a notorious underbelly of abuse.
I do not criticise the women who feel compelled to work in this industry. They are victims.
What I object to is the entire socio economic and national systems which enforce poverty, inequality, inequity, iniquity, and present too many women with no options but to sell themselves in some measure. The reductionist notion that a human can be purchased for money is ultimately in my view wrong, and inextricably linked with the evils of trafficking.
The online sale is not even necessarily part of the safer parts of the industry. If that is ok, then what about a young Somali woman selling herself for a handful of dollars in Mogadishu. Sure we should not criticise her and would be evil if we did, but the criticism must fall where it belongs, on those who exploit the power imbalance to enact their fantasies on women's bodies.


Hi mate. I think we do agree in almost every way.
For me it is important to try to separate the legitimate sex industry from the trafficking of children.
To have the two woven together negates all the hard hard work sex workers have done to have the industry recognized as a legitimate business. It also allows the trafficking of minors to be hidden under the veil of legitimacy.
Many women and men work within this industry that cater for pretty much anything. Catering to menís fantasies is what they do. Now, we may not like the fantasies, we may have problems with some, but that does not mean that all or any fantasies create a power imbalance. Not under these circumstances.
Those that do should rightly be condemned. Terrible things happen.
But within the legitimate sex industry nobody is buying another human being. They are buying a service.
And that is what this thread is about.
The rest belongs somewhere else.


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  #99  
Old 21st November 2017, 09:53 AM
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Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

Hmm, historically at least the boundary between buying the person and buying the service has been blurred, and very often abused. Even today, at parties etc, the topic of conversation is often: "Oh what do you do?" People will often confuse what a person does, with what or who they are.

Employers used to put all sorts of restrictions on what employees can and cannot do, even in their free time. Servants could not marry without their employer's permission.

While selling sex for some individuals may be in their own individual interests, the effect on wider society may not be. Is a whore a whore when off duty? I think most people would say yes. And that is a big problem. of course, doctors are still doctors off duty, but doctoring is regarded by most as a noble profession.

Are people really naive enough to think that a sex worker is going to be admired when the reply to the "And what do you do" question is raised. Maybe, sometimes yes. But societies generally are not that sophisticated, because most are drenched in religious morals and dogma.

Even today, there are many places where "Thy shall not suffer a witch to live" is taken a good, moral public policy.

If people could book sexual services in the same way as a doctor or dentist or electrician is engaged, and no stigma or disgust is involved, then it may be OK.

If the 19 year old is perfectly satisfied and happy with her deal, then I have no problem with that. But the problem is bigger than that. Prostitutes, and to a lessor extent, their clients, are damaged by such transactions. Not that feel, that much sympathy for the predators. [And let's face it, the sex slave trade is neither rare nor totally divorced from "legitimate" or demi-monde sex trade].

I think the sex trade does little to enhance the respect of women, or indeed anybody. I could be wrong, and I don't want to dictate what I think a feminist or a humanist must be, it is just my two cents.
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  #100  
Old 21st November 2017, 10:02 AM
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workmx workmx is offline
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Default Re: 19 yo girl sells virginity for 3.9 million

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David Nicholls said View Post
Could you explain that workmx beyond it being a statement.

By the way, I have already stated there is some sexism in most of us.

David
Person A: I prefer to assault newly homeless people.

Person B: I prefer to assault long term homeless people.

Is either person doing a good thing?

What is missing in their behaviour?
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Last edited by workmx; 21st November 2017 at 10:03 AM.
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