Go Back   AFA Forums > Religion, Unreason and Similar Tropes > Religions

Religions Discussions on the various world religions and their impacts now and throughout history.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 17th July 2017, 08:04 PM
Darwinsbulldog's Avatar
Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 18,108
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

No religions, or less virulent religions and attempts to achieve both is not the issue here, at least in terms of sentiment. But how effective is de-radicalisation anyway. ?? As far as I can see it has very mixed results. Extremists often view moderates as heretics or degenerates, only playing at their faith.

And what of those "moderate religions". We see some pretty nasty stuff coming out of the Catholic church in terms of child abuse, and the attempts to avoid prosecution or in any way damage the church's interests.

And the Salvo's. they do great work, unless you are gay. Or SJOG public hospital, who by locating Public family planning clinics AWAY from the main buildings, indirectly incite or enable fanatics to abuse docs or clients using such facilities. And of course, chaplains in schools is going very well, really working in the children's interests rather than god or church. [NOT!]

Perhaps the last thing we want is for religions to start to be seen as reasonable or mainstream. Maybe when they have more gay priests, start selling their religion on fair terms [like actually teaching religious education] rather than just school prayers etc. The I might say yes, look at that religion. Those folks teach not only about their own faith, but other religions, without fear or favour, and furthermore teach about alternate views, like atheism and agnosticism, again with fairness.
Then the student [or adult] can make a free and informed choice. If their religion really is the best thing since sliced bread, then people will flock to it.

i don't want to ban religion, despite my distaste for every one of them. But we must insist on a fair test and informed opinion.

None of this happens so far, at least on any large scale. Until it does, I am going to style any religion or sect, radical or "moderate" as a clear and present danger to society.

Water down a reform too much, and what you are trying to stamp out just bounces back.
__________________
Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 17th July 2017, 08:39 PM
Strato's Avatar
Strato Strato is offline
What Me Deluded?
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The Bellarine, Geelong.
Posts: 5,165
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Whether it is believed the best expedient is to seek to tear the edifice down, all or nothing or pare away, moderating Islam, it's all positive. The genie of secularism, critical thinking, science and reason is out. Education, enlightenment is the only solution, in the West as well for the Middle East. Military force won't bring Islam down but will enflame it.

Armin Navabi has an ardent, reflective nature. He is young and empowered. The two 10 minute interviews are powerful and well produced.

'AtheistRepublic.com remains a resource for millions around the world.'
__________________
DNA is a coded description of ancestral environments, a 'genetic book of the dead'. Science in the Soul: Selected Writings of a Passionate Rationalist, Richard Dawkins.
Reply With Quote
Like 142857 liked this post
  #13  
Old 18th July 2017, 10:55 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,529
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Well I've just been reading "King Leopold's Ghost". Genocide in the Congo was sold and glorified as an anti-slavery quest against Arab slave trading. Not to mention as an agent for the spread of enlightened Christianity.
__________________
"I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins

Last edited by wadaye; 18th July 2017 at 11:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 18th July 2017, 11:09 AM
The Irreverent Mr Black's Avatar
The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
Yarrrr!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toontown
Posts: 2,794
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Quote:
wadaye said View Post
Well I've just been reading "King Leopold's Ghost". Genocide in the Congo was sold and glorified as an anti-slavery quest against Arab slave trading. Not to mention as an agent for the spread of enlightened Christianity.
@W: Some more reading on the subject, which I hope you find interesting.

Brief quote:
Quote:
Over a century ago Royal-Military-College-of-Canada-trained officer William Grant Stairs participated in two controversial expeditions to expand European influence over the Congo. In 1887, Stairs was one of ten white officers in the first-ever European expedition to cross the interior of the continent, which left a trail of death, disease and destruction. A few years later the Halifax native led a 1,950-person mission to conquer the resource-rich Katanga region of the Congo on behalf of Belgium’s King Leopold II. Today Stairs is honoured with a street, island and multiple plaques, even though he was openly racist and barbarous and added 150,000 square kilometres to the Belgium’s King’s monstrous colony.

During this period Hamilton, Ontario’s William Henry Faulknor was one of the first white missionaries to establish a mission station in eastern Congo. Between 1887 and 1891 Faulknor worked under the ruler of the Yeke kingdom, Mwenda Msiri, who would later meet his death at the hand of Stairs. Faulknor’s Plymouth Brethren explicitly called for European rule (either Belgian or British) over Katanga and like almost all missionaries sought to undermine local ways.
__________________

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats - H. L. Mencken

Reply With Quote
Thank wadaye thanked this post
  #15  
Old 18th July 2017, 06:49 PM
WesternGeo's Avatar
WesternGeo WesternGeo is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 566
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

The Reformation that occurred in non-Orthodox Christian Europe was not the modernising agenda many assume it to be, rather that was the result. With historical hindsight we note this event as the turning point in the beginning of the Enlightenment, however most of the 'reformers' were preaching as they saw it a purist form of Christianity, that removed the monopoly of Papacy control from religion. The Calvins and Luther's were not reforming liberals, they were still fundamentalist Christians, however they broke the Papacies power and the ensuring chaos is what helped make the Enlightenment possible. The fact that today the 'Reformed' churches are more liberal than the Catholic church is only because not being shackled to the hierarchy of Rome they have been able to adapt quicker to the changing demographics of their members, it is not because the 'Reformation' was inherently progressive.

This does not correlate to today's problems with Islam very well. The Catholic Church had a jealously guarded monopoly on religion in Western Europe, there is no central authority in Islam to 'reform'. I suspect that what will change the religion (or its interpretation by the majority) most will not be reform within the religious authorities, rather adaptation of practice to suit the demographics will be the key driver. It is this war of ideas that we in must win, so just like Christians, Muslims can be progressive and religious by discarding some of the nastier teachings. Islam will then die the slow death that Christianity is currently undergoing in the west.
Reply With Quote
Like pipbarber, DanDare, bruce1937 liked this post
  #16  
Old 18th July 2017, 11:52 PM
pipbarber's Avatar
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,553
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

@WG, what a an excellent post. I agree, from my understanding, the reformation was puritanical in intent and so when people call for an Islamic reformation, similar to Christianity's Reformation, it makes no sense, from a strictly historical perspective. What perhaps makes more sense in regard to historical religious repetition is to say that the Islamic Reformation stirred in the late 19th century, gained ground in the age of decolonisation and blossomed in postmodernity and is now commonly referred to as Jihadist Islamism - we are living through the Islamic Reformation right now.

But reform and 'Reformation,' are different things. Islam can be declawed, i take my optimism from reforming writers, theologically the task is not that difficult. The problem is creating the right conditions where reform can take hold. In any case, reform is a far more pragmatic approach to the problem than abolition and so i favor reform but obviously my sympathy is for its destruction along with with all the worlds religions - but...you know, it aint gonna happen so, reform is better than fantasy, in my view, atm.
Reply With Quote
Like DanDare, WesternGeo liked this post
  #17  
Old 19th July 2017, 12:40 AM
Strato's Avatar
Strato Strato is offline
What Me Deluded?
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The Bellarine, Geelong.
Posts: 5,165
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

I won't be getting soft on the cause of relegating religion to the dustbin of history.

It takes a few minutes to scroll down this timeline of evangelical endeavour, below. It is too hard to find a non Christian apologetic article on the Christian missionary drive on the net.

How much good has been done? None at all. Do no harm? They were, and still are completely misguided, deluded, narrow minded, prejudiced zealots and fanatics. And of course they did untold harm.

No historical good or necessity can be argued for religion. Science and reason could have advanced by at least a thousand years without it. Who knows how much sooner we might have progressed otherwise?

At least it is good to be reminded of what was perpetrated, driven by evangelical ardour and imperialistic arrogance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...stian_missions
__________________
DNA is a coded description of ancestral environments, a 'genetic book of the dead'. Science in the Soul: Selected Writings of a Passionate Rationalist, Richard Dawkins.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 19th July 2017, 09:08 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,529
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Quote:
Strato said View Post
I won't be getting soft on the cause of relegating religion to the dustbin of history.

It takes a few minutes to scroll down this timeline of evangelical endeavour, below. It is too hard to find a non Christian apologetic article on the Christian missionary drive on the net.

How much good has been done? None at all. Do no harm? They were, and still are completely misguided, deluded, narrow minded, prejudiced zealots and fanatics. And of course they did untold harm.

No historical good or necessity can be argued for religion. Science and reason could have advanced by at least a thousand years without it. Who knows how much sooner we might have progressed otherwise?

At least it is good to be reminded of what was perpetrated, driven by evangelical ardour and imperialistic arrogance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...stian_missions
I do beg to differ a bit, not about the evangelising, but in respect of the fact of the character of the human beings who did the evangelising. Just sometimes they were shocked by the atrocities being committed to their subjects usually by their own colonial administrations, and they made a difference in exposing the atrocities, or on occasion saving some of the victims lives.
Sometimes they even learned the indigenous languages and helped to preserve their culture thereby.
Cases in point include Australia and the Congo.
__________________
"I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 19th July 2017, 09:57 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,529
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Quote:
The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
Quote:
wadaye said View Post
Well I've just been reading "King Leopold's Ghost". Genocide in the Congo was sold and glorified as an anti-slavery quest against Arab slave trading. Not to mention as an agent for the spread of enlightened Christianity.
@W: Some more reading on the subject, which I hope you find interesting.

Brief quote:
Quote:
Over a century ago Royal-Military-College-of-Canada-trained officer William Grant Stairs participated in two controversial expeditions to expand European influence over the Congo. In 1887, Stairs was one of ten white officers in the first-ever European expedition to cross the interior of the continent, which left a trail of death, disease and destruction. A few years later the Halifax native led a 1,950-person mission to conquer the resource-rich Katanga region of the Congo on behalf of Belgium’s King Leopold II. Today Stairs is honoured with a street, island and multiple plaques, even though he was openly racist and barbarous and added 150,000 square kilometres to the Belgium’s King’s monstrous colony.

During this period Hamilton, Ontario’s William Henry Faulknor was one of the first white missionaries to establish a mission station in eastern Congo. Between 1887 and 1891 Faulknor worked under the ruler of the Yeke kingdom, Mwenda Msiri, who would later meet his death at the hand of Stairs. Faulknor’s Plymouth Brethren explicitly called for European rule (either Belgian or British) over Katanga and like almost all missionaries sought to undermine local ways.
Sorry mods for the derail in this thread but it is a pretty interesting topic. The Jewish Holocaust was not out of character for Europeans. It was not even something new. The genocide had been going on for hundreds of years but was directed at Africans as in the French Congo, the Belgian Congo, German Southwest Africa, the whole continent in fact, native Americans, Aboriginal Australians, and it is also claimed by induced famines in India, slaughter in the Phillipines. Hitler's evil genius was to reignite the traditional anti-Jew genocide and give it a new chapter. But it was not anything out of character for Europe.
__________________
"I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 19th July 2017, 10:33 AM
Darwinsbulldog's Avatar
Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 18,108
Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Quote:
wadaye said View Post
Sorry mods for the derail in this thread but it is a pretty interesting topic. The Jewish Holocaust was not out of character for Europeans. It was not even something new. The genocide had been going on for hundreds of years but was directed at Africans as in the French Congo, the Belgian Congo, German Southwest Africa, the whole continent in fact, native Americans, Aboriginal Australians, and it is also claimed by induced famines in India, slaughter in the Phillipines. Hitler's evil genius was to reignite the traditional anti-Jew genocide and give it a new chapter. But it was not anything out of character for Europe.
Indeed. In fact Himmler was able to create some 38 Waffen-SS divisions out of [mainly] European fascists. In the beginning recruitment was mainly among Germans and "ethnic Germans" "Aryans". [Austrians, et, etc]At first, Scandinavians were favoured, then western Europe, there were even a few Russian units. All told, the armed-SS amassed an army of some 600,000 by the end of the war. There was even a French SS-division [the 33rd] called "Charlemagne" which took part in the defence of Berlin in 1945.

Given the high standards [in military terms, not of course, ethical standards] of SS-recruits until about 1943, that tells me that even the 600,000 is not an accurate indicator of the number of enthusiastic fascists who were rejected for service in the SS. The numbers must have at least been in the millions. And we are only talking about active fascists here-the number of people ideologically sympathetic to fascist causes was much larger, including of course, German voters.

And of course there was the German ["Blue Division" or División Espańola de Voluntarios ] 250th Infantry Division [about 18,000 men] who were volunteers recruited from a pool of about 150,000 Spanish volunteers, the vast majority of those, veterans of Franco's war.

As far as I know, this unit did not commit any known war crimes, and fought with distinction in the Leningrad Sector of the Northern eastern front.

Of course, all these volunteers were mainly men, but there were female nurses, telephone operators, clerks etc.

Considering age, fitness, gender etc, the pool of fascists was probably a significant portion of the European population.
__________________
Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 02:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.