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  #31  
Old 16th August 2016, 03:45 PM
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wolty wolty is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

Healthy scepticism does not include adding conspiracy.
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Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
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  #32  
Old 19th August 2016, 01:25 PM
tmorg tmorg is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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Spearthrower said View Post
I'll ask you again, and I want you to understand just how vital this is: how do you or anyone else know something?

If that knowledge of something exterior, of something out there in the universe, then the only possible way any knowledge of it is gathered is through direct observation, otherwise known as evidence.

When people profess to know things for which there is no evidence, you need to be able to discern that, or else you're just going to lap up snake-oil.
This idea may not appeal to this community but you can obtain knowledge through intuition and feelings. (Not telepathy or channelling just normal human subjectivity.) How reliable is this? I think that depends on your perspicacity but you can look inward for answers as well as outward through your telescope. I do agree with you about the need for evidence and I question if dot connectors such as David Icke are applying false meaning to unconnected phenomena. I agree with you, Spearthrower, but am not convinced our ability to understand the universe is black and white because the universe is both out there and in here.
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  #33  
Old 19th August 2016, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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tmorg said View Post
This idea may not appeal to this community but you can obtain knowledge through intuition and feelings. <snip>
No. You. Can. Not.

Knowledge is substantiated.

Intuition and feelings is random wishful thinking.

If and when intuition and feelings are substantiated they become knowledge.

No, substantiation requires more than simply declaring yourself right.
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  #34  
Old 19th August 2016, 01:52 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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tmorg said View Post
This idea may not appeal to this community but you can obtain knowledge through intuition and feelings.
No, by definition that's wrong.

Intuition or feelings are something internal, something you already have, and they come about via experience. Ergo, you don't obtain knowledge via them: they are knowledge of a sort or at least a product of knowledge.


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tmorg said View Post
(Not telepathy or channelling just normal human subjectivity.) How reliable is this? I think that depends on your perspicacity but you can look inward for answers as well as outward through your telescope.
Go on then - intuit me the chemical composition of the atmosphere of exoplanet Kepler 344c.

I know that you know that I know that this is obviously a very pointed example disproving that claim.

You can't intuit knowledge about the exterior, about the unknown. Intuition is based wholly on your life's experiences and the encounters you have made. This means in a modern society that the majority of your experiences are dealing with other humans, and thus your ability to read them and their intentions derives from your experiences with them. Again, the intuitive element here IS knowledge, it does not provide you knowledge.

This is very similar to my oldest friend who got into Astrology, did courses on it, made a living out of it, and then finally discovered that I thought it was hooey! I explained to him that he just possesses a high level of empathy - he doesn't read characteristics in the position of planets, but by talking to a person and drawing on his life's experiences.



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tmorg said View Post
I do agree with you about the need for evidence and I question if dot connectors such as David Icke are applying false meaning to unconnected phenomena. I agree with you, Spearthrower, but am not convinced our ability to understand the universe is black and white because the universe is both out there and in here.
Well, there's an awful lot of fatuous crap in here too. We're monkeys in suits, tmorg - we have all these evolutionary hold-outs that go entirely uninspected by our rational minds.

Our ability to understand the universe is black and white: either we understand it or we don't.

We have all these mechanisms of reassuring ourselves, of finding corroboratory information, of feeling we are central to the knowledge we possess - but the truth is somewhere in the Dunning-Kruger effect - the more confident you are in you ability to know something, the more likely that you only know a tiny glimmer of it that you unwittingly perceive as the whole.

Evidence, however, is external to us, and the interrogation of that evidence is best engaged via forms of truth correspondence, such as whether our understanding of it applies in all situations i.e. predictions, or whether our understanding of it works for other people. In science, you can see these foundational blocks of knowledge formation; we make predictions based on our understanding and test those predictions; we have other scientists try to apply our understanding in different conditions to see if it holds.

The problem with thinking that intuition is a valid form of knowing is that we remember the hits, and ignore or dismiss the fails. It's confirmation bias all the way down. If you don't have a methodology of interrogating your alleged knowledge, then how can you really be certain it is knowledge and not an artifact of some psychological failing like apophenia?
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  #35  
Old 19th August 2016, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

I accept intuition as a class of knowledge, albeit of an unreliable sort. A great deal of our thinking is done unconsciously. The problem with unconscious musings is a lack of error-trapping. So an intuition may be right, or wrong, so it has to be checked out.

My intuition says that there is a multiverse. I can't demonstrate that as a true public fact [verify it]. So in my head the multiverse* is a fact with an asterisk next to it, signifying that I regard it as an unconfirmed fact.

I use pretty much the same reasoning as I do to say there is no god[s]. I can't be absolutely proved there are no god[s], but a universe with gods would look pretty silly. it would be an illogical universe, and illogical universes collapse under their own contradictions.

Likewise a universe by itself is contradictory, because there is no bootstrap process, and no selection. To make the universe a trinity, we have to invoke the multiverse. Biological evolution emerges from chemical selection which merges from a universe selected from the multiverse.
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  #36  
Old 19th August 2016, 04:30 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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Darwinsbulldog said View Post
I accept intuition as a class of knowledge, albeit of an unreliable sort. A great deal of our thinking is done unconsciously. The problem with unconscious musings is a lack of error-trapping. So an intuition may be right, or wrong, so it has to be checked out.
Aye, a class of knowledge, similar to instincts, but not a means of acquiring knowledge.
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  #37  
Old 19th August 2016, 07:59 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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Aye, a class of knowledge, similar to instincts, but not a means of acquiring knowledge.
James Watson reportedly stumbled across the structure of DNA through a dream about a spiral staircase, while this to some people might indicate that knowledge can be gained through other methods such as dreaming, would he have had the same fortuitous dream discovery had he been, say a carpenter? Or was it the fact that he was a researcher in genetics that caused this apparent revelation.

People dreaming about their field of work and making discoveries based on those dreams is not remarkable and doesn't indicate that "dreams" or intuition are a valid method of finding knowledge, however they may be a valid method of analysing knowledge for previously unnoticed connections.
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  #38  
Old 19th August 2016, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

Certainly, creativity is the phenomenon of taking all that shit that's gone into your brain over the years, jumbling it all up, then producing a novel product from it even though it's manufactured from previous sources.
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  #39  
Old 20th August 2016, 10:00 AM
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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Certainly, creativity is the phenomenon of taking all that shit that's gone into your brain over the years, jumbling it all up, then producing a novel product from it even though it's manufactured from previous sources.
In other words, creative product passed through a reason/evidence filter. The way we explore "design space". Nature did it first with natural selection. Mutations explore the limits of design space, and selection filters what works.

Combine NS and cognition, and you have a really powerful design engine, where the faults of one are compensated by the other.
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  #40  
Old 20th August 2016, 12:23 PM
tmorg tmorg is offline
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Loki said View Post
No, substantiation requires more than simply declaring yourself right.
If you read David Icke's expose of 9/11 you would know his conclusions in this book are substantiated. Not saying he is right or wrong but let us be fair. You can debate the quality of the evidence but you can debate anything.

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If and when intuition and feelings are substantiated they become knowledge.
How do you substantiate feelings? If you are emotionally blind then you may difficulty accessing them or identifying them but what you feel is what you feel. How would you feel about being wrong? Would that bother you?
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