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  #51  
Old 29th August 2016, 01:25 PM
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Loki Loki is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

What would you do tmorg? Would you shoot down a plane full of innocent civilians on suspicion of flying Islamistically?

I can just imagine the bleatings from the very same wankers you are getting your current conspiracy fairytales from.
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  #52  
Old 29th August 2016, 01:41 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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tmorg said View Post
The idea that morons could hijack jetliners with box cutters and skilfully fly them into the World Trade Centre skyscrapers and Pentagon without being intercepted by the US military!
Underlining doesn't add veracity to your claims. Also you have described them as morons, what makes you think they were in any way morons? After all, they learned how to fly a plane. That seems to be an unsupported assertion, religious people aren't all morons, deluded yes, morons not necessarily.
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  #53  
Old 29th August 2016, 02:16 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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I can't really be fucked explaining myself further but I kind of want to. Debunk this, Spearthrower (or anyone else). The idea that morons could hijack jetliners with box cutters and skilfully fly them into the World Trade Centre skyscrapers and Pentagon without being intercepted by the US military! This is stretching my credulity. The inside job explanation is also logistically more plausible according to my common sense interpretation of the difficulty to coordinate and implement an international terrorist operation of such ambition! What do you reckon? (My position on the 9/11 inside job conspiracy theory is neutral.)

BTW, there's that common sense getting in the way of reasoning.

You think it's more plausible "logistically" to have an inside job by the US government which would mean dozens of people needing to know and keeping silent while the government allowed Muslim extremists to kill their own citizens, dramatically damage both the centre of New York and the Pentagon costing hundreds of millions of dollars and the lives of thousands of citizens?

You think that's more plausible logistically according to your common sense?

Here's what I was saying earlier - common sense is the most absurd method of divining the truth, because there's nothing common about it, and those who appeal to it rarely seem to simultaneously employ sense.
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  #54  
Old 1st September 2016, 01:46 PM
tmorg tmorg is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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Loki said View Post
What would you do tmorg? Would you shoot down a plane full of innocent civilians on suspicion of flying Islamistically?
What does that mean? I do not understand your question.

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stevebrooks said View Post
Underlining doesn't add veracity to your claims.
I am not claiming anything. I said I was neutral. I will stop underlining it is unnecessary.

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stevebrooks said View Post
Also you have described them as morons, what makes you think they were in any way morons?
I take that comment back. I will expain. The perception I got from reading the book Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Centre Disaster [2002] by David Icke was that the hijackers were not intelligent, organised or even motivated. David Icke does write persuasively. He is a researcher and a salesman and a partisan.

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After all, they learned how to fly a plane. That seems to be an unsupported assertion, religious people aren't all morons, deluded yes, morons not necessarily.
I should check this but it was reported the hijackers had trouble learning to fly light aircraft let alone a jetliner. It is not an unsupported assertion but is perhaps not a well supported assertion. I have not done my own research. Have you ever played around with a flight simulator, stevebrooks? Flying the Cessna 172 Skyhawk is easy. Flying a jetliner is difficult.

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Spearthrower said View Post
You think it's more plausible "logistically" to have an inside job by the US government which would mean dozens of people needing to know and keeping silent while the government allowed Muslim extremists to kill their own citizens, dramatically damage both the centre of New York and the Pentagon costing hundreds of millions of dollars and the lives of thousands of citizens?
In the context of the infrastructure, technology and organisational capacity to pull of a terrorist attack of such ambition, yes. In the context of pulling of an elaborate conspiracy and getting away with it, no.

I would like to make clear the following: my position is neutral on conspiracy theories; I get along better with rational sceptics than I do conspiracy theorists; I agree with almost every point that has been made in response to my posts in this thread; I am having a few difficulties in my life personally and am generally confused.

Thank you for your patience, understanding and assistance as I get this sorted.
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  #55  
Old 1st September 2016, 03:23 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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tmorg said View Post
I should check this but it was reported the hijackers had trouble learning to fly light aircraft let alone a jetliner. It is not an unsupported assertion but is perhaps not a well supported assertion. I have not done my own research. Have you ever played around with a flight simulator, stevebrooks? Flying the Cessna 172 Skyhawk is easy. Flying a jetliner is difficult.
Yes I have flown a flight simulator, and what you also have to understand is that the hijackers were not learning to land or take off, they had no intention of doing either of those. Learning to land and take off is the difficult part, they were learning how to keep them in the air and navigate. This alone tells you they weren't stupid, if they had spent the time required to learn to take off and land in a jetliner they would have taken years to become proficient, they focussed on what they needed to know, navigation and flight, hence they would have been bad pupils in some areas and worked hard in other areas.

If you look at the actual flight paths here:



You would see that the hijackers needed to know how to keep he aircraft in the air and navigate, in some cases across large art of the continental USA, to their intended targets, these are the skill they would have concentrated on.
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  #56  
Old 1st September 2016, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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Loki said View Post
What would you do tmorg? Would you shoot down a plane full of innocent civilians on suspicion of flying Islamistically?
What does that mean? I do not understand your question.
It is a very simple question.

You have a civilian airliner full of innocents on a regular and scheduled flight to New York. Just like hundreds of others. While you ponder the flight continues toward New York, just as it has been scheduled to do.

Do You:

1. Scramble the nearest air force fighters, which are some distance away?

2. Attempt to force the aircraft to land?

3. Shadow the aircraft to see what it does next?

4. Shoot it out of the sky over an urban area just on spec?

Now, if you suspect the aircraft had been hijacked the same questions apply. You still don't know the hijackers are not planning to land.

Next, if you suspect the aircraft had been hijacked and know a similar aircraft has just been flown into a building the same questions apply.

Would you shoot down a civilian airliner on suspicion of flying Islamistically?

Think carefully.

You claim the fact that the airliners weren't shot down supports the conspiracy hypothesis. I claim that if they had have been shot down the very same nutters who confected the conspiracy you are championing would have built a different but equally hysterical and equally ridiculous conspiracy hypothesis.
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  #57  
Old 1st September 2016, 04:17 PM
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stylofone stylofone is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

Conspiracy theories are a bit like god and the epistemology discussions we have elsewhere. You can't prove their falsehood with 100% certainty. But you can make an assessment about probability, and they are ludicrously improbable. So don't be "neutral" about them. On the other hand, the accepted facts of 9/11 are all too consistent with the hateful reality of much of human interaction.

I also know people personally who experienced first hand some of the things denied by the 9/11 conspiracy theories, so I find them to be an affront, about as believable as the miracle cures and weeping statues claimed by the religious, although probably motivated by a different mental, social or political malaise.
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  #58  
Old 1st September 2016, 09:13 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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tmorg said View Post
In the context of the infrastructure, technology and organisational capacity to pull of a terrorist attack of such ambition, yes. In the context of pulling of an elaborate conspiracy and getting away with it, no.
Well, there is no context of infrastructure, technology or organisational capacity. All there needed to be was a few seemingly innocent chaps learn to fly, take over a plane, and do the unthinkable. That explains it dramatically better than the inside job claim.



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tmorg said View Post
I would like to make clear the following: my position is neutral on conspiracy theories; I get along better with rational sceptics than I do conspiracy theorists; I agree with almost every point that has been made in response to my posts in this thread; I am having a few difficulties in my life personally and am generally confused.
I want to challenge that Tmorg. You are not in the neutral position, I am in the neutral position when it comes to conspiracy theories - I await evidence, but until the alleged hypothetical links between 2 phenomena is evidenced, then I remain firmly within the null hypothesis. Personally, from what I've read here, it looks like you want to believe in conspiracy theories, but just can't quite bring yourself to when you know there's ample compelling logical and evidential reasons not to do so.
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  #59  
Old 1st September 2016, 09:14 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

Oops wrong thread! *snip*

Last edited by Spearthrower; 1st September 2016 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 1st September 2016, 09:17 PM
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  #60  
Old 1st September 2016, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: I withdraw my comments withrawing my comments

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