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Old 8th October 2017, 09:16 PM
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Michalski, J. R., et al. (2017). "Ancient hydrothermal seafloor deposits in Eridania basin on Mars." 8: 15978.
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The Eridania region in the southern highlands of Mars once contained a vast inland sea with a volume of water greater than that of all other Martian lakes combined. Here we show that the most ancient materials within Eridania are thick (>400 m), massive (not bedded), mottled deposits containing saponite, talc-saponite, Fe-rich mica (for example, glauconite-nontronite), Fe- and Mg-serpentine, Mg-Fe-Ca-carbonate and probable Fe-sulphide that likely formed in a deep water (500–1,500 m) hydrothermal setting. The Eridania basin occurs within some of the most ancient terrain on Mars where striking evidence for remnant magnetism might suggest an early phase of crustal spreading. The relatively well-preserved seafloor hydrothermal deposits in Eridania are contemporaneous with the earliest evidence for life on Earth in potentially similar environments 3.8 billion years ago, and might provide an invaluable window into the environmental conditions of early Earth.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ncomms15978

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1006154947.htm
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:40 PM
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With respect, this is intellectually insulting: wild speculation of Martian geochemical conditions and trivialization of biochemical assembly, metabolism and reproduction. There are intractable problems to purely naturalistic processes. Chemical evolution is a myth, there are no cosmic evolutionary processes capable of the complex structure, design, order and operation of biochemical systems required for even the simplest organism. The homochirality essential in nucleotide amino acids, the homopolymerization of the DNA side chains, the nucleotide coding using information design, the cell membrane formation essential for what is required for colocation. coincidence, contamination mitigation and concentrations that are absolutely precise and should be the most profound and frequently reported issues, not wild speculation about volcanoes on Mars..
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:47 PM
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Ha. That's funny.
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:13 PM
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But god did it by magic?
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:32 PM
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Ha. That's funny.
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:25 PM
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Qedlin Saltum said View Post
With respect,
Hah! Fucken respect, my arse.

Quote:
this is intellectually insulting:
No, it's a fucking scientific paper. Intellectual insult is better left to those who insist on the requirement for a cosmic knob-twiddler.

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wild speculation of Martian geochemical conditions and trivialization of biochemical assembly, metabolism and reproduction.
You have specific examples and elucidations on hand, I trust.

Quote:
There are intractable problems to purely naturalistic processes. Chemical evolution is a myth, there are no cosmic evolutionary processes capable of the complex structure, design, order and operation of biochemical systems required for even the simplest organism. The homochirality essential in nucleotide amino acids, the homopolymerization of the DNA side chains, the nucleotide coding using information design, the cell membrane formation essential for what is required for colocation. coincidence, contamination mitigation and concentrations that are absolutely precise and should be the most profound and frequently reported issues, not wild speculation about volcanoes on Mars..
*snort*

That's an awful lot of unsupported assertions you've got there, since you bring up "wild speculation".

Of course, you'll be able and willing to demonstrate that the peer-reviewed paper does, in fact, consist wholly of wild speculation, and that said claim isn't just a load of shit you've dumped on our rug because you're emotionally wedded to the notion of a creator.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:08 AM
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Qedlin Saltum said View Post
With respect, this is intellectually insulting: wild speculation of Martian geochemical conditions and trivialization of biochemical assembly, metabolism and reproduction. There are intractable problems to purely naturalistic processes. Chemical evolution is a myth, there are no cosmic evolutionary processes capable of the complex structure, design, order and operation of biochemical systems required for even the simplest organism. The homochirality essential in nucleotide amino acids, the homopolymerization of the DNA side chains, the nucleotide coding using information design, the cell membrane formation essential for what is required for colocation. coincidence, contamination mitigation and concentrations that are absolutely precise and should be the most profound and frequently reported issues, not wild speculation about volcanoes on Mars..
Welcome to the forums! It is usual polite to introduce oneself first!
Your enthusiasm to come into the forums "guns blazing" would be admirable if you did so with a little knowledge of the subject at hand!

"Intractable problems?" Really? You seem remarkably unfamiliar with the recent literature on, for example, biological homochirality. :-

Chiral autocatalysis: reaction noise, micro-reversibility and chiral inhibition in mirror symmetry breaking

Michael Stich, Josep M. Ribó, David Hochberg
(Submitted on 16 Jan 2016)
Quote:
Applying the constraints dictated by the principle of detailed balance, we analyze a recent proposal for spontaneous mirror symmetry breaking (SMSB) based on enantioselective autocatalysis coupled to a linear decay of the enantiomers and in the presence of reaction noise. We find the racemic state is the final stable outcome for both deterministic as well as for stochastic dynamics, and for both well-mixed and small spatially-coupled systems. The racemic outcome results even when the autocatalytic cycles are driven irreversibly by external reagents, in manifestly non-equilibrium conditions. Our findings suggest that first-order autocatalysis coupled to reactions involving \textit{non-linear} heterochiral dynamics is a necessary pre-condition for any mechanism purporting to lead to molecular homochirality.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1601.04152

A quick search on google scholar seems to suggest the problem is not as intractable as you imagine.

This is a good perpective paper outlining some of the issues:-

Blackmond, D. G. (2010). "The Origin of Biological Homochirality." Cold Spring Harbor Perspectives in Biology 2(5): a002147.
Quote:
The single-handedness of biological molecules has fascinated scientists and laymen alike since Pasteur's first painstaking separation of the enantiomorphic crystals of a tartrate salt more than 150 yr ago. More recently, a number of theoretical and experimental investigations have helped to delineate models for how one enantiomer might have come to dominate over the other from what presumably was a racemic prebiotic world. This article highlights mechanisms for enantioenrichment that include either chemical or physical processes, or a combination of both. The scientific driving force for this work arises from an interest in understanding the origin of life, because the homochirality of biological molecules is a signature of life.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2857173/

For sure, the question is not done and dusted, but hardly seems to be "intractable".

But let us move on.

"...trivialization of biochemical assembly, metabolism and reproduction..."

I am not sure I understand your meaning here. Scientific understanding of natural processes is "trivialisation???".

That is what science does...it investigates natural phenomena. Does an understanding of electricity and quantum mechanics "trivialise" computers? Because both are necessary to build an electronic computer, which you are typing on, and using to express your contempt for scientific investigation.

But let us move on to the concept of "design".

To be sure, design implies a designer. But deliberate design is NOT the only process that can produce functionality.

For example, natural filters. Of course, humans design build and use filters, but nature has them too.

Go get some clean sand from a beach somewhere. Put it in a plastic bucket, with small holes drilled underneath. Now go and make some muddy water, and pour it into the bucket full of sand. What comes out the other end? Sandy formations, forged by wind and tides, can produce natural filters.

Or what about distillation? That is another way to purify water. But nature does it too. The Earth and seas are heated by the sun, water evaporates and rises up to become clouds, which later fall as rain, which is reasonably pure [except from contamination by man-made pollution].

Natural selection and chemical selection work in similar ways, they are basically natural filters. Nothing weird or speculative about that at all.

What is weird and highly speculative is you insistence that some magic animism makes these processes work. Not only do you insist on some magic or supernatural designer, but you insist on some magical force or forces drive natural processes.

Not only are such claims unnecessary for natural systems to work, you have not demonstrated even the possibility of them existing! I would call that highly speculative.

And if you are going to invoke a creator-god, the onus is on you to demonstrate at least plausibility, and explain why you need to complicate your hypotheses beyond necessity to explain natural phenomena.

Lastly, was god always there, or who designed him? That path leads to infinite regress. None of which is needed or relevant to scientific questions, or their answers.
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  #8  
Old 13th October 2017, 11:03 AM
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Goldenmane said View Post
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Qedlin Saltum said View Post
With respect,
Hah! Fucken respect, my arse.

Quote:
this is intellectually insulting:
No, it's a fucking scientific paper. Intellectual insult is better left to those who insist on the requirement for a cosmic knob-twiddler.

Quote:
wild speculation of Martian geochemical conditions and trivialization of biochemical assembly, metabolism and reproduction.
You have specific examples and elucidations on hand, I trust.

Quote:
There are intractable problems to purely naturalistic processes. Chemical evolution is a myth, there are no cosmic evolutionary processes capable of the complex structure, design, order and operation of biochemical systems required for even the simplest organism. The homochirality essential in nucleotide amino acids, the homopolymerization of the DNA side chains, the nucleotide coding using information design, the cell membrane formation essential for what is required for colocation. coincidence, contamination mitigation and concentrations that are absolutely precise and should be the most profound and frequently reported issues, not wild speculation about volcanoes on Mars..
*snort*

That's an awful lot of unsupported assertions you've got there, since you bring up "wild speculation".

Of course, you'll be able and willing to demonstrate that the peer-reviewed paper does, in fact, consist wholly of wild speculation, and that said claim isn't just a load of shit you've dumped on our rug because you're emotionally wedded to the notion of a creator.
Larus vaccarum migrating early this year?
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:35 PM
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...There are intractable problems to purely naturalistic processes. ...there are no cosmic evolutionary processes capable of the complex structure, design, order and operation of biochemical systems required for even the simplest organism....
Abiogenesis. Just about the last strong refuge of the "God of the Gaps" argument. Along with the origin of the universe.

You or I being unable to understand how something might have happened a very very long time ago is not evidence for the existence of God.

Science is a methodology, not a belief system. Speculation is perfectly valid as long as it is testable, falsifiable, and can be used to make predictions. There are well established steps that speculation (also known as a hypothesis) needs to go through in order to be considered a valid theory. It is known as the scientific method.

Have you ever flown in an airplane? We often forget how amazing the technology that we take for granted actually is. How do you think that the science and technology behind that airplane was established? Not to mention your refrigerator, your computer, your smartphone, your TV, all those man-made satellites above our heads...........

It's funny that I'm expecting to have this conversation all over again with a very good friend this weekend. Every time I manage to convince him that science is not a dodgy 2nd rate belief system but rather a methodology and a body of knowledge gained using that methodology, he manages to go and get convinced again that religion is the only truth and that science is just a bunch of made up shit.
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