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Anti-equality Think all feminism has 'just gone too far', or doubt why gay people would want the right to marry? Here's your place.

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  #81  
Old 1st August 2014, 01:15 PM
MikeJay MikeJay is offline
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MikeJay said View Post
My apologies were for my, even worse than usual spelling, tardiness in replying, percieved mood?, general incoheranceat the time.

I'm not / don't get abusvie when I'm off my face, I kinda get happy and more tollerant, not the other way around.

I've actually run out of Endol this morning, had a really great day at work, but in buckets of pain.
Endone not Endol
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  #82  
Old 1st August 2014, 01:33 PM
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Endone not Endol
Fair enough MikeJay, just be very careful. Drug addiction is worse than pain.
Easy to say, hard to believe I know. But I have experienced both.
Please take care
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  #83  
Old 1st August 2014, 08:40 PM
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Logic please Logic please is offline
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Logic please said View Post
OK, let's answer this, and unpack a few things in doing so.

Yes, an ad like that aimed at "reckless female drivers" might be equally appropriate/allowed if, analogous to the situation surrounding young reckless male drivers:

- there were prevalent social narratives around young women "proving" their "femininity" (as per proving "masculinity" ) via stupid risk-taking and showing off to their peers, esp behind car steering-wheels;
- these also fed into wider (harmful) gender stereotypes of "what it means to be a real woman" and thus sexually attractive;
- young female drivers were dying and being injured (for those reasons) at a similar rate to young males;
- there was evidence that a similar campaign aimed at women would address and debunk these stereotypes, in the same way as it did when aimed at young men.

And these are just the points I can think of off the top of my head, and tapped out on a phone.

MJ, question for you, please - does the above apply equally to young women, as well as young men?

If so, please point us to where - with full references, thanks.

If not... then really, what is the point of this line of questioning of yours? As odd has said, if you have a case to make, please make it.

Looking forward to your reply.
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MikeJay said View Post
...can we move on?
Yeah, no worries, we can move on. Like moving on from some fairly egregious misrepresentation of what I posted:
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MikeJay said View Post
...You've answered you would find and ad like that aimed at women as equally acceptable as ads aimed at men, great.

You find it acceptable, I don't,
No, really? Now, exactly where the fuck did I categorically say that lot??? And moving on from:
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The rest of your post goes to lengths to attack the validity of my example, and rightly so, it is a bad analogous example, but superflous as you understood my intent when you responded.

No probs, to be clear, I admit it is a bad analogy, one I can't back up under the scrutiny of your questions.
You're only conceding your "example/analogy" (translation: bunch of loaded questions), but you're in no way conceding your substantive point(s), correct? Which leaves those open to be rehashed if "better examples/analogies" can be found/manufactured, sometime down the track... perhaps?

Yep, moving on now...
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  #84  
Old 2nd August 2014, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: Dumb Man

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odd said View Post
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extreme feminists
I think we need a definition of "extreme feminists".
They are the feminists who like bungee jumping, and diving with sharks.
...while menstruating. yeahhhh!
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  #85  
Old 2nd August 2014, 08:51 AM
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In men's bathers!
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  #86  
Old 2nd August 2014, 09:36 AM
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I'd like to see that.
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  #87  
Old 17th August 2014, 09:50 PM
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Two points

1.
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rayne said View Post
Whatever works to reduce people speeding.
I think we're dangerously close to an "ends justify the means" argument. To illustrate, I'm a teetotaler, and it's my personal belief that alcohol should be illegal for non-religious, economic and health reasons. I wouldn't try to protest this by myself, because alcohol use is such a strong culture in Australia. However, deaths from speeding must have become less accepted at some point in history to the point where laws were put in place to reduce speeding, with fines to back them up. Then projects focussing on dangerous roads and awareness campaigns. Finally a campaign that is targeted at the age group and sex most likely to cause a fatal accident, by emphasising something which is meant to be the "driving force" behind this behaviour. So in a way the end does justify the means, but only because other avenues have been explored and found to be lacking, and we gradually make the issue supersede other concerns until we control it adequately.

2. I've believed in the "Stupid man" meme for quite some time. I would never start a thread about it though, because its not the most pressing issue in gender equality. I think it's still an issue that would need to be dealt with one day. I am concerned that there is something of a culture of making fictional men look silly in media. As the article posted earlier rightly pointed out, this is closely related to archaic notions of gender roles, especially roles emphasised in a patriarchal society. I also agree that men presented in the ads mentioned have a significant amount of license in acting stupidly or inappropriately with little penalty. However, the rolling of eyes mentioned in the article is actually damaging.

It presents a case that men are a bit pathetic, in the same way that showing scantily clad women in advertising for men's products shows women as sex objects or possessions. The "stupid man" presentation is less prevalent and far less damaging though. What evidence do I have that it translates to real interactions? Very little, all anecdotal, and nearly all from a very limited number of interactions. Basically, I've heard phrases like "That's such a man thing to do" and "He's such a male" (and "Boys will be boys"?) when generalising men as irresponsible or borderline stupid (Not me, I swear. Well, most of the time).

So far my arguments has been from a personal opinion, and not a very strong one at that. I'm aware that it's basically from my own experience, and it could just show that some people in my life are a little misandrist. Now for the main reason I've posted in this thread today: Men are not made responsible for their own health. It is a common theme in teaching that I've received on the subject you may have to direct any health interventions for a man towards his wife. Maybe this teaching is becoming a bit archaic, because most of the men I've met who are like this are reasonably old. However, It's important to realise that if a group is accepted as being irresponsible, this is not privilege. It can also damage a man's ego, and a man's ego is a powerful thing. I hope you either got tripped up on the last sentence, or realised it was a joke :P. Nevertheless, when I've heard some of the quotes above, it hasn't felt great.

If you've read this far, thanks. This is basically a view that I developed from personal experience when I was anti feminist without really understanding what feminism was. I'm a little wiser now, but I still haven't found the "stupid man" idea to be completely without basis. Anyway, if someone challenges me on a particular point, I'll endeavour to reply more succinctly than I have in this post.

Oh, and if this counts as resurrecting an old post, let me know and I'll edit it into oblivion.
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  #88  
Old 17th August 2014, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Dumb Man

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Greg said View Post
Two points

1.

I think we're dangerously close to an "ends justify the means" argument. To illustrate, I'm a teetotaler, and it's my personal belief that alcohol should be illegal for non-religious, economic and health reasons. I wouldn't try to protest this by myself, because alcohol use is such a strong culture in Australia. However, deaths from speeding must have become less accepted at some point in history to the point where laws were put in place to reduce speeding, with fines to back them up. Then projects focussing on dangerous roads and awareness campaigns. Finally a campaign that is targeted at the age group and sex most likely to cause a fatal accident, by emphasising something which is meant to be the "driving force" behind this behaviour. So in a way the end does justify the means, but only because other avenues have been explored and found to be lacking, and we gradually make the issue supersede other concerns until we control it adequately.

2. I've believed in the "Stupid man" meme for quite some time. I would never start a thread about it though, because its not the most pressing issue in gender equality. I think it's still an issue that would need to be dealt with one day. I am concerned that there is something of a culture of making fictional men look silly in media. As the article posted earlier rightly pointed out, this is closely related to archaic notions of gender roles, especially roles emphasised in a patriarchal society. I also agree that men presented in the ads mentioned have a significant amount of license in acting stupidly or inappropriately with little penalty. However, the rolling of eyes mentioned in the article is actually damaging.

It presents a case that men are a bit pathetic, in the same way that showing scantily clad women in advertising for men's products shows women as sex objects or possessions. The "stupid man" presentation is less prevalent and far less damaging though. What evidence do I have that it translates to real interactions? Very little, all anecdotal, and nearly all from a very limited number of interactions. Basically, I've heard phrases like "That's such a man thing to do" and "He's such a male" (and "Boys will be boys"?) when generalising men as irresponsible or borderline stupid (Not me, I swear. Well, most of the time).

So far my arguments has been from a personal opinion, and not a very strong one at that. I'm aware that it's basically from my own experience, and it could just show that some people in my life are a little misandrist. Now for the main reason I've posted in this thread today: Men are not made responsible for their own health. It is a common theme in teaching that I've received on the subject you may have to direct any health interventions for a man towards his wife. Maybe this teaching is becoming a bit archaic, because most of the men I've met who are like this are reasonably old. However, It's important to realise that if a group is accepted as being irresponsible, this is not privilege. It can also damage a man's ego, and a man's ego is a powerful thing. I hope you either got tripped up on the last sentence, or realised it was a joke :P. Nevertheless, when I've heard some of the quotes above, it hasn't felt great.

If you've read this far, thanks. This is basically a view that I developed from personal experience when I was anti feminist without really understanding what feminism was. I'm a little wiser now, but I still haven't found the "stupid man" idea to be completely without basis. Anyway, if someone challenges me on a particular point, I'll endeavour to reply more succinctly than I have in this post.

Oh, and if this counts as resurrecting an old post, let me know and I'll edit it into oblivion.
I do agree with several of your points. Having worked in insurance and having to deal with people who have lost loved ones to drunk/speeding drivers on the phone while they are desperately attempting to maintain composure while telling how the incident occurred that took their loved one - at this point I just couldn't care about the subtext of the advertisement or whether it makes someone feel sad. There are lives at stake. I'll take keeping people alive over not offending anyone.
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Last edited by rayne; 17th August 2014 at 10:28 PM.
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  #89  
Old 20th July 2017, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: Dumb Man

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odd said View Post
Hate to derail this thread - but given MJ appears to have thrown his arms in the air, I don't think it will hurt...

It appears there is evidence the small penis jibe ads worked (they were by the same people responsible for, and on the back of the, successful 'don't be a tosser' littering ads we had in NSW).

Quote:
Pinkie ads slow down speedsters
A controversial road safety campaign that implies young men who speed do so because they have small penises has become one of the state's most successful anti-speeding campaigns, Roads Minister Eric Roozendaal has said.

The Roads and Traffic Authority TV ad, dubbed "Little Pinkie", shows onlookers wiggling their pinkies upon seeing a speeding male driver.

The gesture is used in youth culture to indicate a small penis.

The TV ad was part of a broader campaign that included magazine and outdoor advertising featuring the slogan "Speeding: No one thinks big of you".

Research commissioned by the RTA found three-quarters of people believed the campaign increased community awareness about speeding.

According to Mr Roozendaal, young people were also re-enacting the gesture demonstrated in the $1.9 million campaign.

"Wiggling your pinkie has cut through to that crucial age group of young drivers - they're using it as a way to slow their mates down and stop them acting recklessly on our roads," he said.

Sixty-one per cent of young males surveyed for the research believed the campaign had the power to make them think about their own driving behaviour, he said.

"This campaign is about saving lives - not pride. If it dents a few egos but helps save a life, then it's worth it," Mr Roozendaal said.

One of the main reasons the ad worked was that it was surprising, said Paul Fishlock, executive creative director at agency The Campaign Palace.

"People haven't seen a speeding ad that takes that approach before, that actually taps into the truth about what a lot of young guys who do speed think others think of them," he said.

"It completely turns that on its head."

The RTA has endured criticism of the campaign since it was launched in June.

The RTA and the Advertising Standards Bureau had received 34 complaints about the campaign, an RTA spokeswoman said.

The complaints were that the ad was discriminatory, however the Advertising Standards Bureau had said it would not be acting on the complaints, she said.
Soames Job, director of the RTA's NSW Centre for Road Safety, said the ad's approach had been shaped by research showing young people had become desensitised to traditional "crash and shock images".

But Mr Fishlock, who has been involved with anti-tobacco campaigns for more than 10 years, said there was still a role in public safety campaigns for shock-style ads that depicted "the reality [and] the carnage".
Cries of discrimination - trying to protect the group most at risk of dying, or killing others in car accidents. I can imagine the complaints now 'But wimminz speedz tooz'. . Again that magical word 'privilege' arises - that this is discrimination worth complaining about...

However - this story... well I will let it speak for itself...
Quote:
Government ads cause road rage
Government-sponsored sexual taunts provoke one motorist beyond endurance:

A SYDNEY man has blamed the Roads and Traffic Authority’s “little pinky” advertising campaign for a fit of road rage, saying that a woman’s wiggling little finger implied he had a small penis.

Simon Jardak was fined $400 by a magistrate yesterday after an accusatory finger on the Anzac Bridge enraged him so much he threw a plastic bottle out of his car window, hitting the gesturing woman’s car…

The “little pinky” gesture towards a man was akin to sexual assault, Jardak said.
Great post. Thanks for the links.
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  #90  
Old 21st July 2017, 02:56 PM
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Stub King Stub King is offline
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as someone who could have been - many moons ago - considered a reckless driver, this ad is not too far from the truth. while there is obviously no established links between tendency to speed and dick size and conceding that personal testimony is not evidence, you speed for the same reason you think having a big dick means you are somehow special or better. it is the same game of one-upmanship. a game women indulge in too, but speeding tends to be mostly practiced by dick owners.
sadly, said dick owners are also stupid because they don't know how to speed. I didn't. I could drive now like I drove then and be much safer. you get that from 35 years of experience. you also get the good sense to generally drive to the conditions on the road.
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