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  #11  
Old 9th August 2017, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

In the short to medium term, automation, including AI, will reduce demand for labour. This will drive wages down in real terms and increase wealth disparity.

This is not some "possible scenario". It is already happening on a large scale.

We need a very real shift in economic policy, away from neoliberalism and towards something that works for everyone. And by that I do not mean Marxism or anything silly like that.
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  #12  
Old 9th August 2017, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

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Darwinsbulldog said View Post
But you forgetting the environment. We are still raping the planet, and using it unsustainably. As usual, the poor are being hardest hit. Millions starving and millions more on the edge.

And the effects are creeping up the income ladder. Not only environment, but automation and globalisation.

The world is more violent than ever. Worse the violence has no target. In the past, if city hall brutalised you, you overthrow city hall. How can one overthrow globalisation and automation? You can't. It is everywhere. That is why we see Trump and Britexit.

Yes there are less wars with bullets maybe, but lethal force is not the only killer. People are dying indirectly-from inequity, from economic systems, from political systems. And not just dying, but suffering.
No, i'm not forgetting the environment. We're terrible by that measure. I was merely pointing out our better qualities.

I take issue with this statement though,
Quote:
The world is more violent than ever.
Statistically that is not true, at least in western liberal democracies.

Also, we do not need to 'overthrow' globalisation nor automation and AI, in point of fact we can't! You may as well desire the overthrow of humans having sex with each other. Good luck. The trick is directing what we have as tools and what we become into something humane and decent. I'm not sure we'll be able to do that but i'm pretty confident we wont be able to overthrow the future.

But, homo sapiens have some good qualities, i maintain hope.
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  #13  
Old 9th August 2017, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

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142857 said View Post
In the short to medium term, automation, including AI, will reduce demand for labour. This will drive wages down in real terms and increase wealth disparity.

This is not some "possible scenario". It is already happening on a large scale.

We need a very real shift in economic policy, away from neoliberalism and towards something that works for everyone. And by that I do not mean Marxism or anything silly like that.
We need a complete re-thinking of how humans function in a tech based social economy. We need a re-thinking on how humans derive meaning from their lives when they dont have a career or employment or any possibility of ever getting either - and that's after we all have a universal income and we are so far away from even discussing that it's scary.

At the moment, such a scenario doesnt penetrate even the outer realms of political and economic consciousness.
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  #14  
Old 9th August 2017, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

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We need a complete re-thinking of how humans function in a tech based social economy. We need a re-thinking on how humans derive meaning from their lives when they dont have a career or employment or any possibility of ever getting either - and that's after we all have a universal income and we are so far away from even discussing that it's scary.

At the moment, such a scenario doesnt penetrate even the outer realms of political and economic consciousness.
Exactly. Politicians still appear to believe that they can reduce unemployment by punishing the unemployed. Neither side of politics in Australia (or around the world for that matter) has much of an idea of how to deal with the changes that are already happening.

We don't need a system where we provide the unemployed with just a roof over their heads and enough money to buy food (which we barely, if at all, do now). We need to provide the unemployed with real quality of life, and the scope (and income) to find meaning in their lives.
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  #15  
Old 9th August 2017, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

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Neither side of politics in Australia (or around the world for that matter) has much of an idea of how to deal with the changes that are already happening.
You may be heartened to hear that that is not true. We have Finland!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors.../#6efe4ec35f70
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

But AI could unlock some great new scientific discoveries. Cold fusion, warp drive etc.. I don't think humanity has had many significant breakthroughs of late - despite better computing power, communication and collaboration. AI could serve us well if put to good use.
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Old 10th August 2017, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

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pipbarber said View Post
No, i'm not forgetting the environment. We're terrible by that measure. I was merely pointing out our better qualities.

I take issue with this statement though,

Statistically that is not true, at least in western liberal democracies.

Also, we do not need to 'overthrow' globalisation nor automation and AI, in point of fact we can't! You may as well desire the overthrow of humans having sex with each other. Good luck. The trick is directing what we have as tools and what we become into something humane and decent. I'm not sure we'll be able to do that but i'm pretty confident we wont be able to overthrow the future.

But, homo sapiens have some good qualities, i maintain hope.
You misunderstand PIP, or I didn't explain myself very well. Yes, hope is all we have, and once one loses hope, one is dead.

Yes, globalisation and automation are here to stay. But these things should be our tools, not our masters. That is why I said we need to overthrow both.

I have widened the concept of violence. Generally violence is typically understood in a physical way. But mental or emotional abuse, is at least to me, is also a form of violence, and it's effects on the body are often damaging or even deadly.

So while globalisation and automation are inevitable, and in some ways even essential, there effects are also toxic, at least as far as they have been practised so far. Our economics is way out of date, putting unrealistically low values to things like public goods, environmental costs, and human dignity and comfort. [Including freedom, democracy etc].

In the old days, one could overthrow a tyrant. It was often bloody and costly and traumatic, but it could be done.

Attempts to modulate the behaviour of society to include human values and rights [including environmental concerns], especially in the light global corporatism, have been largely unsuccessful. We see this is so-called "free trade" agreements where there are fines levied on governments that try to legislate to reduce social or environmental harm, if such legislation or regulation reduces company profits.

Thus transnationals can usurp the sovereignty of governments, and we know that corporate law is already quite strong enough. eg The Corporations power in the Tasmanian dam case.
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  #18  
Old 12th August 2017, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

People just like ourselves who read articles and AFA threads about the serious issues facing our society like work, wages and taxation, about domination by AI, global warming, nukes, population and consumption, the three squabbling Abrahamic religions and all the problems of the world, are perhaps vulnerable to generalised anxiety disorder.

I don't think I have that but poring over gloomy, ponderous stuff nightly does tend to make one feel estranged somewhat, in society, all this solipsistic reading.

I appreciate those who have ethics, who write well and do great analysis, and anyone who is applying themselves to understanding and that's positive.

DBd has been a longstanding critic of globalisation, once again in this thread in relation to AI. I have been meaning to look into the critique, get a handle on it. This is what I was wanting,

The Guardian
The long read (well worth it )
Nikil Saval

Globalisation: the rise and fall of an idea that swept the world

'Its not just a populist backlash many economists who once swore by free trade have changed their minds, too. How had they got it so wrong?'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...wept-the-world
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