Go Back   AFA Forums > Secularism and Social Issues > Ethics and Justice

Ethics and Justice Ethics, morality, and justice in society

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 9th August 2017, 06:40 PM
142857's Avatar
142857 142857 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,193
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

In the short to medium term, automation, including AI, will reduce demand for labour. This will drive wages down in real terms and increase wealth disparity.

This is not some "possible scenario". It is already happening on a large scale.

We need a very real shift in economic policy, away from neoliberalism and towards something that works for everyone. And by that I do not mean Marxism or anything silly like that.
Reply With Quote
Like pipbarber liked this post
  #12  
Old 9th August 2017, 06:43 PM
pipbarber's Avatar
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,880
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

Quote:
Darwinsbulldog said View Post
But you forgetting the environment. We are still raping the planet, and using it unsustainably. As usual, the poor are being hardest hit. Millions starving and millions more on the edge.

And the effects are creeping up the income ladder. Not only environment, but automation and globalisation.

The world is more violent than ever. Worse the violence has no target. In the past, if city hall brutalised you, you overthrow city hall. How can one overthrow globalisation and automation? You can't. It is everywhere. That is why we see Trump and Britexit.

Yes there are less wars with bullets maybe, but lethal force is not the only killer. People are dying indirectly-from inequity, from economic systems, from political systems. And not just dying, but suffering.
No, i'm not forgetting the environment. We're terrible by that measure. I was merely pointing out our better qualities.

I take issue with this statement though,
Quote:
The world is more violent than ever.
Statistically that is not true, at least in western liberal democracies.

Also, we do not need to 'overthrow' globalisation nor automation and AI, in point of fact we can't! You may as well desire the overthrow of humans having sex with each other. Good luck. The trick is directing what we have as tools and what we become into something humane and decent. I'm not sure we'll be able to do that but i'm pretty confident we wont be able to overthrow the future.

But, homo sapiens have some good qualities, i maintain hope.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 9th August 2017, 06:52 PM
pipbarber's Avatar
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,880
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

Quote:
142857 said View Post
In the short to medium term, automation, including AI, will reduce demand for labour. This will drive wages down in real terms and increase wealth disparity.

This is not some "possible scenario". It is already happening on a large scale.

We need a very real shift in economic policy, away from neoliberalism and towards something that works for everyone. And by that I do not mean Marxism or anything silly like that.
We need a complete re-thinking of how humans function in a tech based social economy. We need a re-thinking on how humans derive meaning from their lives when they dont have a career or employment or any possibility of ever getting either - and that's after we all have a universal income and we are so far away from even discussing that it's scary.

At the moment, such a scenario doesnt penetrate even the outer realms of political and economic consciousness.
Reply With Quote
Like 142857 liked this post
  #14  
Old 9th August 2017, 07:13 PM
142857's Avatar
142857 142857 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,193
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

Quote:
pipbarber said View Post
We need a complete re-thinking of how humans function in a tech based social economy. We need a re-thinking on how humans derive meaning from their lives when they dont have a career or employment or any possibility of ever getting either - and that's after we all have a universal income and we are so far away from even discussing that it's scary.

At the moment, such a scenario doesnt penetrate even the outer realms of political and economic consciousness.
Exactly. Politicians still appear to believe that they can reduce unemployment by punishing the unemployed. Neither side of politics in Australia (or around the world for that matter) has much of an idea of how to deal with the changes that are already happening.

We don't need a system where we provide the unemployed with just a roof over their heads and enough money to buy food (which we barely, if at all, do now). We need to provide the unemployed with real quality of life, and the scope (and income) to find meaning in their lives.
Reply With Quote
Like pipbarber liked this post
Thank The Irreverent Mr Black thanked this post
  #15  
Old 9th August 2017, 07:45 PM
pipbarber's Avatar
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,880
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

Quote:
142857 said View Post
Neither side of politics in Australia (or around the world for that matter) has much of an idea of how to deal with the changes that are already happening.
You may be heartened to hear that that is not true. We have Finland!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors.../#6efe4ec35f70
Reply With Quote
Thank bruce1937 thanked this post
  #16  
Old 9th August 2017, 10:55 PM
nibble's Avatar
nibble nibble is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 206
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

But AI could unlock some great new scientific discoveries. Cold fusion, warp drive etc.. I don't think humanity has had many significant breakthroughs of late - despite better computing power, communication and collaboration. AI could serve us well if put to good use.
__________________
That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
Reply With Quote
Like pipbarber liked this post
  #17  
Old 10th August 2017, 10:14 AM
Darwinsbulldog's Avatar
Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 18,408
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

Quote:
pipbarber said View Post
No, i'm not forgetting the environment. We're terrible by that measure. I was merely pointing out our better qualities.

I take issue with this statement though,

Statistically that is not true, at least in western liberal democracies.

Also, we do not need to 'overthrow' globalisation nor automation and AI, in point of fact we can't! You may as well desire the overthrow of humans having sex with each other. Good luck. The trick is directing what we have as tools and what we become into something humane and decent. I'm not sure we'll be able to do that but i'm pretty confident we wont be able to overthrow the future.

But, homo sapiens have some good qualities, i maintain hope.
You misunderstand PIP, or I didn't explain myself very well. Yes, hope is all we have, and once one loses hope, one is dead.

Yes, globalisation and automation are here to stay. But these things should be our tools, not our masters. That is why I said we need to overthrow both.

I have widened the concept of violence. Generally violence is typically understood in a physical way. But mental or emotional abuse, is at least to me, is also a form of violence, and it's effects on the body are often damaging or even deadly.

So while globalisation and automation are inevitable, and in some ways even essential, there effects are also toxic, at least as far as they have been practised so far. Our economics is way out of date, putting unrealistically low values to things like public goods, environmental costs, and human dignity and comfort. [Including freedom, democracy etc].

In the old days, one could overthrow a tyrant. It was often bloody and costly and traumatic, but it could be done.

Attempts to modulate the behaviour of society to include human values and rights [including environmental concerns], especially in the light global corporatism, have been largely unsuccessful. We see this is so-called "free trade" agreements where there are fines levied on governments that try to legislate to reduce social or environmental harm, if such legislation or regulation reduces company profits.

Thus transnationals can usurp the sovereignty of governments, and we know that corporate law is already quite strong enough. eg The Corporations power in the Tasmanian dam case.
__________________
Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.
Reply With Quote
Thank pipbarber, Strato thanked this post
  #18  
Old 12th August 2017, 12:32 AM
Strato's Avatar
Strato Strato is offline
What Me Deluded?
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The Bellarine, Geelong.
Posts: 5,456
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

People just like ourselves who read articles and AFA threads about the serious issues facing our society like work, wages and taxation, about domination by AI, global warming, nukes, population and consumption, the three squabbling Abrahamic religions and all the problems of the world, are perhaps vulnerable to generalised anxiety disorder.

I don't think I have that but poring over gloomy, ponderous stuff nightly does tend to make one feel estranged somewhat, in society, all this solipsistic reading.

I appreciate those who have ethics, who write well and do great analysis, and anyone who is applying themselves to understanding and that's positive.

DBd has been a longstanding critic of globalisation, once again in this thread in relation to AI. I have been meaning to look into the critique, get a handle on it. This is what I was wanting,

The Guardian
The long read (well worth it )
Nikil Saval

Globalisation: the rise and fall of an idea that swept the world

'It’s not just a populist backlash – many economists who once swore by free trade have changed their minds, too. How had they got it so wrong?'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...wept-the-world
__________________
Life Sucks Then You Die - The Fools.
In The Blank Slate Steven Pinker negates the credo .
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 19th August 2017, 03:48 PM
Azurisan21's Avatar
Azurisan21 Azurisan21 is offline
Resident of Fantasy Island
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2,495
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

Quote:
Strato said View Post
I expect this thread will be bumped back from down the page from time to time. AI is becoming ever more imposing. Accelerated inflation. We can't turn back.

AI serves one ultimate end, the complete appropriation of human controls and the supplanting of humans. Such intentionality might not have been realised quite yet. It is in its dormancy stage.

Elon Musk is declaring the urgency of wresting control from artificial intelligence programming, algorithms, while we still might do so. This thing is bigger than both of us. It must be regulated. AI will be able to perpetrate war.

At present, algorithms although most handy entities, are consolidating inequity and disadvantage, the status quo. They learn. They are heuristic. My internet behaviour would be knowable, known.

The Guardian
Aug 8

Inequality

'Rise of the racist robots – how AI is learning all our worst impulses
There is a saying in computer science: garbage in, garbage out. When we feed machines data that reflects our prejudices, they mimic them – from antisemitic chatbots to racially biased software. Does a horrifying future await people forced to live at the mercy of algorithms?'

https://www.theguardian.com/inequali...worst-impulses
...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 20th August 2017, 08:26 AM
The Irreverent Mr Black's Avatar
The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
An old banger, but almost unstoppable.
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toontown
Posts: 4,353
Default Re: AI: Not Your Friend and Mine

The first proposed solution to Fear Of Skynet was long prior to the Terminator flicks.

It was, of course, Isaac Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics:
Quote:
A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
And they've been examined and tested in various ways. If you can find John Sladek's parody of Asimov, the short story Broot Force, in which a robot reacts to a First law typo: "A robot may not inure a human being...", then a cackle is guaranteed, but anyway...

Some reading:
2014 - Technology Review: Do we need Asimov's Laws?
Aug 2017 - The Register: Are Asimov's laws enough to stop AI stomping humanity?
Aug 2017 - Scientific American: Asimov's Laws Won't Stop Robots from Harming Humans, So We've Developed a Better Solution

This last article proposes empowerment:
Quote:
For example, instead of always following the rule “don’t push humans”, a robot would generally avoid pushing them but still be able to push them out of the way of a falling object. The human might still be harmed but less so than if the robot didn’t push them.
Perhaps laws restrict, and programming directly for the optimum is the solution.
__________________


Got unfilled Atheist needs? Let me know.

Reply With Quote
Thank Strato thanked this post
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 05:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.