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  #11  
Old 6th March 2015, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: Brom

Welcome, Brom!
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  #12  
Old 8th March 2015, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: Brom

G'day Brom and welcome to the forum
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  #13  
Old 10th March 2015, 01:25 AM
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Religion or Reality, choose...
 
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Default Re: Brom

Really interesting intro story. Welcome Brom.
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"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
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Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

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  #14  
Old 23rd April 2017, 10:21 AM
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Default Re: Brom

Brom
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  #15  
Old 23rd April 2017, 10:39 AM
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The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
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Default Re: Brom

Hi, Brom, wherever you are now.

This thread appeared during my sabbatical. Maria Monk? - a dubious source of information.

Linky
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It is believed that the book was not written by Maria herself but either written down or indeed fabricated by one or more of the various clergymen that surrounded her during this time of publicity, such as Reverend William K. Hoyt and Reverend John Jay Slocum, in an attempt to make money through the sensational narrative.
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Monk’s book was a sensation as soon as it was published. Protestant newspapers, which excerpted Awful Disclosures and discussed it avidly, immediately proclaimed it a courageous glimpse into the depravities of convent life. Outraged Protestants demanded that the Hôtel-Dieu be investigated, to which the Bishop of Montreal, left with little choice in the face of such mounting pressure, eventually agreed.
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Conclusions

As the person who reportedly took down Maria Monk’s story, Dwight was not only the most capable of the three suspects of producing such a book but, indeed, he actually wrote an anti-Catholic tract on the same theme. And Dwight’s writing style is quite similar to that of “Monk.”
It seems clear that Theodore Dwight either ghostwrote the Monk book in his own words or made it up entirely on Monk’s behalf. It is possible that, coached by Hoyt, say, she fooled first Dwight and then others. (These included such notables as Samuel F.B. Morse, later famed inventor of the electric telegraph and the telegraphic code that bears his name [Morse 1836].)
Two points of evidence are against Dwight’s having been a deliberate hoaxer. First, his reputation seems otherwise intact. And second, in his own writing he goes to great pains to admit uncertainty regarding Monk’s story, using such phrases as “This work professes,” “If this book is entitled to credit” (repeated in variant forms), and the like (pp. 5, 6, 113, 148).
As to Maria Monk herself, a pro-church response to her claims had chronicled an early life of theft and prostitution (Awful 1836, 71–82). She died in 1849, imprisoned on New York City’s Welfare Island. Her arrest came after she had picked the pocket of a man with whom she had apparently engaged in sex for hire (Stein 1993, 226).



No evidence of any of the alleged crimes was turned up. Undaunted, anti-Catholic organizations like the New York Protestant Association accused the bishop of a cover-up, and offered to inspect the Hôtel-Dieu themselves. With public furor escalating and many eager to see Monk’s extreme claims corroborated, W.F. Curry and G.W. Perkins, both widely respected Protestant clergymen, were chosen to conduct a second investigation into the Hôtel-Dieu. They, too, turned up nothing. They also came away from the convent convinced that, given the huge discrepancies between Monk’s descriptions of the convent and their inspection of it, Monk herself had never set foot there.
I like to see bullshit refuted with truth, rather than opposing brands of bullshit.
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Last edited by The Irreverent Mr Black; 23rd April 2017 at 10:42 AM. Reason: More!
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  #16  
Old 23rd April 2017, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Brom

The Irreverent Mr Black wrote:-

Quote:
I like to see bullshit refuted with truth, rather than opposing brands of bullshit.
Religions are actually quite good at debunking each other, and these sorts of debates between theologians have been going on well before Galileo. Anyway, such debates should lead a person to conclude that such games are as futile as tic-tac-toe.
In tic tac toe, the only way to win is to not make mistakes. If no one makes a mistake, the result is a draw-hence the futility.

Exactly the same with religious debates or other woo. But in the case of religion/woo, the game is based on mistakes-errors in reasoning and evidence.

The difference is that with religion or other woo, the futility of being unable to prove any religion as wrong or right should suggest that all religion and woo is wrong, and not simply a misinterpretation of the situation.

Assuming a player is intellectually honest -religious debate, or any other woo "tic-tac-toe", iterative play should lead to atheism or disbelief in woo and religion.

Non-theistic religions should be as vulnerable as theistic ones, because they have some element of magic or other in them, even if they lack gods- they can include belief animism/vitalism, disembodied souls, or whatever.

Scientific literacy just adds icing to this cake of debunking/disbelief in woo. because knowing mechanisms answers many "how" questions, thus hopefully deflecting people's mind from asking the futile "why" questions.
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  #17  
Old 23rd April 2017, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Brom

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The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
Quote:
Mr Black: I like to see bullshit refuted with truth, rather than opposing brands of bullshit.
The article is well worth the time. Hitchens wrote for Slate. A great magazine.

It provides important background to understanding the contemporary conservative Christian American mentality.

The Pope is the Antichrist.

The referenced Richard Hofstadter essay, The Paranoid Style in American Politics is recommended.

http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/t...ican-politics/
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Last edited by Strato; 23rd April 2017 at 11:09 PM.
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  #18  
Old 24th April 2017, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: Brom

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Strato said View Post
The article is well worth the time. Hitchens wrote for Slate. A great magazine.

It provides important background to understanding the contemporary conservative Christian American mentality.

The Pope is the Antichrist.

The referenced Richard Hofstadter essay, The Paranoid Style in American Politics is recommended.

http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/t...ican-politics/
God-like or not, I think there is reasonable doubt that Jesus actually wanted Peter to succeed him. So I don't have any particular issue with calling the Pope an anti-Christ. First, because the god-bits of the story are nonsense, so I don't really care which fairy-worshipper is in charge, and second, reasonable doubt about the succession is not proof that the Papal succession is illegitimate [in an organisational, rather than a religious sense].
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  #19  
Old 24th April 2017, 11:08 AM
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The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
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Darwinsbulldog said View Post
God-like or not, I think there is reasonable doubt that Jesus actually wanted Peter to succeed him. So I don't have any particular issue with calling the Pope an anti-Christ. First, because the god-bits of the story are nonsense, so I don't really care which fairy-worshipper is in charge, and second, reasonable doubt about the succession is not proof that the Papal succession is illegitimate [in an organisational, rather than a religious sense].
There's a thread of succession-competition in the xtian source-fiction, and a number of other contraindications for the RC brand, like "call no man father", and a complete lack of any mention of praying to the saints.

tldr: Poorly-constructed narrative, loosely misinterpreted, inserts non-canonical features.
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  #20  
Old 14th July 2017, 09:33 AM
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The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
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Default Re: Brom

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(snippo)
This thread appeared during my sabbatical. Maria Monk? - a dubious source of information.

Linky
Quote:
It is believed that the book was not written by Maria herself but either written down or indeed fabricated by one or more of the various clergymen that surrounded her during this time of publicity, such as Reverend William K. Hoyt and Reverend John Jay Slocum, in an attempt to make money through the sensational narrative.
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And, for fans, more on the "Maria Monk" genre of junk...
Salacious Convent Exposés Were the Most Popular Books in Antebellum America

Quote:
These stories generally follow the same structure. A young woman enters a convent, moved by circumstance or the spirit to explore a religious life. She soon realizes that she’s made a terrible mistake. At best, she finds that the life of a nun isn’t the reflective, spiritual experience she imagined; at worst, nuns are subject to regular abuse. She’s usually kept from leaving but manages to escape to tell her story. Sometimes, though, there is no escape and she dies—trapped in the evil convent.

Many of these books were sold as fiction, but some of the best known, including Maria Monk, were supposed to be true—even though that best seller contained some of the most lurid details of all of them. Maria is dissatisfied at home, so she joins a convent, only to find she’s expected to have sex with the priests next door, who enter the convent through secret tunnels. When nuns inevitably become pregnant, their condition is hidden and their babies murdered and buried in the basement. After the book was released, though, journalists tracked down the titular author and found that her book had been ghostwritten by a group of anti-Catholic men, who made up most of the story. (Monk was a real person, who had contact with Catholic institutions but never lived in the convent featured in the book. The most lurid revelations were entirely fictional.)
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