Go Back   AFA Forums > Secularism and Social Issues > Ethics and Justice

Ethics and Justice Ethics, morality, and justice in society

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #91  
Old 14th September 2017, 05:59 PM
Stub King's Avatar
Stub King Stub King is offline
Take my advice, don't listen to me
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 778
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
142857 said View Post

Perhaps by taking a longer-term view and modernising (mostly via automation) the Australian car-manufacturing industry, and by maintaining some degree of protection for the local industry as long as required, we could still have a car manufacturing industry in Australia. But to what end? So that Aussie robots could have jobs instead of Chinese or American robots?
Well ... if we had designed and manufactured the robots it would have been a positive outcome. perhaps not overwhelmingly so but for sure better than having to fork out import dollars on foreign robots.

However, I think that the better approach would have been to have a 10 year plan to phase out tariffs and public funding while at the same looking at retraining, re-education, re-skilling of the affected workers. just imagine if we had skilled them up in renewable energy. we'd be fucking laughing.

Catherine Livingstone, President of Business Council of Australia gave a very interesting speech for the National Press Club talking about these topics. I think you could still find it in their archives. and this was not some socialist talking about it.

Quote:
I don’t subscribe to the view that government should simply “get out of the way” and let private industry and the free market determine the shape that our economy takes. We need a diverse and robust economy that can provide reasonably stable employment to most of us, most of the time.
Neither do I. While I am a capitalist, in a sense that I think that on average, having the means of production in the private sector and a free market is good. But only if you acknowledge that an economy is a series of feedback loops which sadly behave chaotically, i.e. they are divergent. So I am also a social democrat in a sense that I think certain services or industries (health, education, law enforcement, military, utilities) should remain in public hands, supplemented by private option, and that a welfare state - within reason - is essential.

Quote:
One problem is that, as a country whose economy is to a large extent reliant on primary production, we are largely at the mercy of the ebb and flow of global demand for the commodities we produce. When primary producers are making a shitload of money from high demand for the commodities they provide, the rest of the economy suffers ...

Some “intervention” to keep the economy healthy during both good economic times and bad economic times may be justified IMO.
precisely. but think about it ... the beauty of resources is that - to a degree - you have the market by the balls. BHP can't exactly up and go to Tuvalu because this is not where the coal/zinc/alum/iron ore/etc is. and while the notion of taxation driving away businesses is in principle valid, it is not a binary situation. BHP would still invest even if instead of making $20B they only made $10B. it is still $10B of PROFIT. look at Norway, largest sovereign fund in the world. we could have used taxation as a way to cushion a future blow. we are one of the richest countries in natural resources. and they have certainly sustained our standard of living. but imagine we had a massive sovereign fund and used it to as a VC fund to fund startups and innovation.

Quote:
It’s not an easy job managing an economy, particularly one as vulnerable to external forces as Australia’s economy. That is why we pay our politicians and bureaucrats such large sums of money. IMO we need to start holding them to a much higher standard.
No it is not. But surely your #1 priority would be to develop industries which are not as vulnerable thru innovation, technology and services. Look at Israel. it has fuck all natural resources, more wars and violence than any nation in the last few decades, huge chunk of GDP spent on defense and a massive industry of innovation. and while the standard of living there is not Australia, it is far from being Chad.

However, our main issue, IMO is not that managing an economy is hard. it is that those who are supposed to do it, have no interest in doing so for the betterment of the country. they only go as far as what is good for them and their immediate support base.
__________________
The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it. (Osho)
Reply With Quote
Like 142857 liked this post
Thank The Irreverent Mr Black thanked this post
  #92  
Old 18th September 2017, 09:44 AM
Stub King's Avatar
Stub King Stub King is offline
Take my advice, don't listen to me
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 778
Default Re: Welfare Users?

https://www.facebook.com/RBReich/vid...5460069466582/

debunking trickle down economics in 90sec
__________________
The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it. (Osho)
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 18th September 2017, 01:48 PM
142857's Avatar
142857 142857 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,114
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
Stub King said View Post
However, I think that the better approach would have been to have a 10 year plan to phase out tariffs and public funding while at the same looking at retraining, re-education, re-skilling of the affected workers. just imagine if we had skilled them up in renewable energy. we'd be fucking laughing.
I find that we are fiercely in agreement on pretty much all of the issues being discussed. It is just that I suspect that I am a lot more cynical and pessimistic than you are.

In terms of re-skilling, re-training, up-skilling and so on, Australian politicians are very good at making the right noises about how important these are and how vital a role they play in Australia over the coming years.

I work in technology. There has been a massive decline in terms of how willing Australian companies and organizations are to train or upskill staff. If a company cannot find staff with the exact skills required, extensive industry experience with those skills, and a willingness to work for a lower hourly rate than one might expect working at McDonalds, then it is pretty straightforward to claim that a skills shortage exists and to simply import the staff that then need.

It wasn’t always like this, I got into IT as an unemployed teenager whose tech experience was limited to Space Invaders and Pong. There were traineeships for youngsters who could pass a pretty straightforward aptitude test. These days many people with extensive IT qualifications and experience struggle to find work. IT degrees have one of the worst, if not the worst, outcomes in terms of finding work in a related field. And if you are lucky enough to have a job and want training, good luck with that. With a lot of companies (including the one I work for) you’ll need to take annual leave and pay for the training yourself.

So yes, I totally agree. We had a great opportunity to re-skill those staff, and many others, for the jobs of the future. But we are consistently moving AWAY from being a country that does that, not TOWARDS being a country that does that.

The issues around training, education and lack of opportunity are not, of course, limited to tech.


Another thing that gets raised regularly on AFA is the ongoing decline in secure employment in Australia and potential solutions to that. One fantastic idea that I know a lot of us support is the Universal Basic Income. I think the UBI is a great idea, we really should be testing it more extensively and rolling it in. A big focus of Australian governments should be how they will handle the transition to a more highly automated economy that no longer provides secure, full-time employment for all.

But, once again, that is not the direction we are heading in. Strong factions within our current government would love to see any sort of support for the unemployed or the underemployed phased out. More and more we see various forms of dog-whistling by politicians and the media designed to strengthen the impression that the unemployed and the underprivileged have nobody to blame but themselves. Politicians promise to make it harder to get welfare benefits and to punish the unemployed by forcing them into programs that have been shown to decrease their chances of finding paid employment.
__________________
".....If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

- Marcus Aurelius (claimed)
Reply With Quote
Thank The Irreverent Mr Black thanked this post
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 11:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.