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Education How it is and how it should be. The current system and those attempting to subvert it.

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  #41  
Old 11th March 2017, 05:20 PM
c2105026 c2105026 is offline
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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nibble said View Post
Private schools are a business pure and simple. And most schools and even governments have no clue about what we need to be teaching kids to survive let alone be successful. Rapid technological change means we need a new approach to education. Technology has made learning accessible to everyone and not something reserved for the privileged few.
They may be a business but I highly doubt that any are for profit. Mostly it would be a cash-neutral enterprise, like a charity, registered club or building society.

Irrespective of private vs public debate, with the sheer advancement of human society over the last 20 years with internet, social media and 'fake news' I concur that much of the curriculums of all Key Learning Areas need updating. In mathematics in particular, the current national syllabus is bollocks. It was written by a pure mathematician that has no empathy with the average student who has zero interest in algebra and geometry.
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  #42  
Old 11th March 2017, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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c2105026 said View Post
They may be a business but I highly doubt that any are for profit. Mostly it would be a cash-neutral enterprise, like a charity, registered club or building society.

Irrespective of private vs public debate, with the sheer advancement of human society over the last 20 years with internet, social media and 'fake news' I concur that much of the curriculums of all Key Learning Areas need updating. In mathematics in particular, the current national syllabus is bollocks. It was written by a pure mathematician that has no empathy with the average student who has zero interest in algebra and geometry.
You would have to look carefully into their records and have full access. It is easy, even for a puppy with no accounting skills, to make a company look as if it is making a loss. You can send profits overseas, buy materials or equipment, and send them to another division or school. Make shell/holding companies. There are millions of tricks, all legal somewhere.

Eg. Take Australia post. OK, once upon a time there was just the postal division. It used to handle all physical mail, like letters and parcels. But with the internetz, web orders went up, and letters went down. Australia post was still making a profit, because parcels volume went up while letter volume shrank.

Along comes an account and tells the CEO to split the mail division into two: parcels and letters! Oh look, letters is making a loss! But parcels profits are increasing. Bad, bad letters! Go sit in a corner and wear the dunce's hat!

You can do this with any business. Chop it into divisions and departments and look for those areas that make a loss. Outsource the ones "making a loss" to the lowest bidding sub-contractor, which is why most of us can spend a half an hour on the phone trying to get support! the profitable bits you can sell off.

Basic corporate raider techniques!
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  #43  
Old 11th March 2017, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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c2105026 said View Post
They may be a business but I highly doubt that any are for profit. Mostly it would be a cash-neutral enterprise, like a charity, registered club or building society.
You probably missed my inconsequential anecdote a few pages back C210...but the exclusive inner suburban private school i'm referring to is certainly non profit. However, they have so much fucking money they have decided to purchase houses (houses with gardens and driveways and leafy tress 10 minutes from the CBD worth millions of dollars each) in the immediate vicinity of the campus to house their support and admin staff. By house i mean, thats their workplace. A million dollar + house and garden where they work from 9 to 5. Over the holidays, they're empty. They're empty at night!

Is that really a good use of government subsidies?
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  #44  
Old 12th March 2017, 12:16 PM
c2105026 c2105026 is offline
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You probably missed my inconsequential anecdote a few pages back C210...but the exclusive inner suburban private school i'm referring to is certainly non profit. However, they have so much fucking money they have decided to purchase houses (houses with gardens and driveways and leafy tress 10 minutes from the CBD worth millions of dollars each) in the immediate vicinity of the campus to house their support and admin staff. By house i mean, thats their workplace. A million dollar + house and garden where they work from 9 to 5. Over the holidays, they're empty. They're empty at night!

Is that really a good use of government subsidies?
Whilst I do support the existence of an independent educational sector, and that it attract government funding in a vaguely equitable manner, obviously I am not going to defend everything that goes on.
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  #45  
Old 12th March 2017, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

In the private school scene, allegiance to one's old school is pretty much a certitude. Huge sums get bequeathed to the old school in wills. Or scholarships are funded ongoing in a trust managed by the school. Superb facilities are funded for this way, with the benefactor's name given to it.

The old collegians or grammarians strongly, even exclusively identify with that cohort for life as they tend to do generally with those whom they learn attended a private school also.

I know people who really deem themselves educated because they went to a private school even though they didn't go to uni and study science or the social sciences and they don't read. They regard themselves as the gentry. They have inherited wealth, estates, property which was violently appropriated from the indigenous people who are no more. The land was granted freehold.

They disdain the working class, the 'bogun,' who are the same actually. They are equally uneducated and class conscious, but they didn't start that false consciousness. They just have better jokes.

I can't believe that naming your prestigious private school on your curriculum vitae doesn't confer advantage in selection among candidates for a managerial position in the corporation when its highly likely that the senior management doing that selecting and when considering whom they will personally be sharing the office building's upper floor level with, as peers won't favour that.

Equal opportunity? What, in human affairs?

And so with partnering, sexual selection also obtains. From the private school gene pool and socio-economic-cultural class there is selection at work for intelligence or ambition, rivalry, just as there was sexual selection for intelligence and success among the Ashkenazi Jews in Europe since their emergence in the early period CE.

By 2100 the elite will be the ones able to afford the bionic upgrades and even immortality Yuval Noah Harari predicts in Homo Deus, a Brief History of Tomorrow.

I support Gonski all the way. Everyone should be able to flourish and gain higher education.
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Last edited by Strato; 12th March 2017 at 11:42 PM.
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  #46  
Old 15th March 2017, 10:53 AM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

A good article related to this topic from the ABC

Charity status: Do wealthy private schools and hospitals deserve exemption from paying income tax?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-1...status/8353276
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  #47  
Old 22nd March 2017, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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and additionally be funded at rates per student which tend to exceed those applicable to state schools, especially relatively poor state schools.
Source?
Sorry, WAS, busy few weeks for me.

I can see error in what I've written:

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... IMO, it is not equitable or just that the tax and transfer system of Australia allows schools such as that one to receive income largely tax free, and additionally be funded at rates per student which tend to exceed those applicable to state schools, especially relatively poor state schools.
That was careless of me. I should have been much more careful in how I expressed that.

By saying "of Australia", I can readily see that my proposition literally includes the States. If the States are included, then the proposition is clearly false.

My angst in this area has long been directed towards what I regard as inappropriate Commonwealth policy. Policy which I've regarded as positively promoting social inequity and entrenching disadvantage. Which is a somewhat different proposition. I should have said that clearly.

As for sources regarding funding, one easy place to see the position is Gonski, pp 50-51, Figures 17 and 18.

To take one example from those Tables, it can be seen that in 2009 Commonwealth funding of students in Catholic schools was a shade under $6,000 per student in NSW, whilst for the same period it was much less than $2,000 per student for government schools.

As far as Commonwealth funding in other states and territories is concerned, and for non-Catholic independent schools, the Gonski tables show similar types of disparities in spending.

Those tables nicely show the impact of my omission of the states, too. In my example, for 2009, the NSW government provided about $2,000 per student to Catholic and about $9,000 per student for its own government schools.

Sadly, the position appears to have deteriorated during the first term of the Abbott/Turnbull government:

Funding to private schools rose 'at twice the rate of public schools': report

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...

The analysis, using the most recent My School data, showed that between 2009 and 2014, combined states and federal government annual funding for independent schools rose by $1911 per student, in increase of 30.3 per cent, not adjusted for inflation.

Funding for public schools rose by $1539 per student, an increase of 14.6 per cent.

For Catholic schools, funding rose by $2332 per student, an increase of 30.2 per cent.

...
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Last edited by Blue Lightning; 22nd March 2017 at 06:56 PM.
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  #48  
Old 22nd March 2017, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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Sorry, WAS, busy few weeks for me.
Not been particularly deeply involved myself, mainly because laptop is borked and iPad not the best thing for any sort of complex expression.

But also on this topic having to carefully formulate my thought
A because this is a topic on which expression of views is restricted by my employment.

My central point - not just about BL's comment but more generally - is that this is one of those topics on which it is fine to various views, but it is important to start from the position of facts. I've seen some remarks that seem less to be about facts than political biases.

A few key things to note:

1. Private schools get less govt $ than public schools
2. The current arrangements for Commonwealth schools funding are those set up by the previous, Labor, govt. certain aspects of these arrangements are coming up to expiry, which is why this is a hot issue now.
3. Under these arrangements, Commonwealth funding for private schools has been growing faster than for public schools.
4. The implementation of funding following the Gonski review has resulted in differences in funding per student in schools with the same needs funding score depending on the State.

So complaining about those evil pro-religious LNP folks is a touch idle.

It's also, it seems to me, to be important to distinguish between arguments based on the idea that private provision of education is bad, and religious provision of education is bad. These are quite different arguments.
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