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  #71  
Old 20th March 2017, 06:48 PM
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Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
Sir Pup, if I wanted Sydney harbourside, but got Western Backabuggari, would I be compensated?
The land could only be vacant crown land. I suppose getting everyone a postage-stamp sized plot would mean the compulsory purchase of all of Sydney, which would not only cost a shit-load, you would piss everybody off. [Well, maybe only Sydney people, so who cares? ]

Of course Sydney is the fly in the ointment because of the obscenely over-heated market there.

But if we ignore that problem for the moment, land would have to be allotted based not only on "consumer choice" but also availability and equivalence. So you could choose your block from -say- Joondalup vs Kwinana or something.

With very high value areas, you could not give land, but perhaps provide some equity in a flat, as there would have to be practical correspondence between the dormitory and work areas. ideally, one could do the "urban village things like in Europe, but because we have been weeded to the idea of the automobile, and designed our cities with that in mind, converting to a European "Urban Village" type model may not be practical for several decades.

Some breaks/controls would have to be in place to stop foreign speculation [and for that matter, domestic speculation] and this, the lower end of the property "market".

I am not saying this is a workable plan right now, and there are probably many wrinkles. It is just an exploration of the concepts, but I welcome you pointing out the wrinkles.
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  #72  
Old 20th March 2017, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

I liked your post #69 DB, where you brainstorm these ideas. I'm quite amenable to many of them but as you say above there are wrinkles so without meaning to be critical as such, but rather in a workshop mode, i think that giving away crown land is problematic on several fronts.

Environmental is the first one, people chopping down trees and clearing bush to build a dwelling. Secondly, people dont want to move too far away from their friends family, employment options entertainment etc.

I'm very skeptical about the concept of urban spread. I think its a bad thing generally. Population growth needs to go skyward, i reckon. Spreading people out fucks up the bush, creates pockets of terrible poverty and crime brought on by a lack of services, employment, education, public transport and diverse entertainment and social options. Whats more, everyone needs a fucking car to get anywhere.

Why couldnt you apply the same principle to skyward development? But not rundown shit heaps - decent apartments in well serviced areas.
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  #73  
Old 20th March 2017, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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I liked your post #69 DB, where you brainstorm these ideas. I'm quite amenable to many of them but as you say above there are wrinkles so without meaning to be critical as such, but rather in a workshop mode, i think that giving away crown land is problematic on several fronts.

Environmental is the first one, people chopping down trees and clearing bush to build a dwelling. Secondly, people dont want to move too far away from their friends family, employment options entertainment etc.

I'm very skeptical about the concept of urban spread. I think its a bad thing generally. Population growth needs to go skyward, i reckon. Spreading people out fucks up the bush, creates pockets of terrible poverty and crime brought on by a lack of services, employment, education, public transport and diverse entertainment and social options. Whats more, everyone needs a fucking car to get anywhere.

Why couldnt you apply the same principle to skyward development? But not rundown shit heaps - decent apartments in well serviced areas.
Sure I agree that in many cases perhaps a govt donation of equity into a flat, rather than a land grant would be more feasible. Many of the "working poor" in Sydney [never mind the landless, unemployed poor] are disadvantaged, facing hours of commute time, etc.

But the purpose of this welfare is to get people in the system, not to get them everything they want or desire. Besides, vacant crown land is free, although there is an opportunity cost of not selling or leasing the land, and as you say, there will be environmental costs also.

But to quote Mao Zedong: "The people are the sea that the revolutionary swims in,..."

So I am assuming if nothing substantial gets done before too long, it will be pitchforks in the streets, or worse, a vote for an Australian "Trump".

So basically, reasonably content people don't really go in for revolution, so long as a system isn't too unfair. If we let things get so bad that the revolution seems the only realistic option for the excluded, then, it will be civil war.

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  #74  
Old 20th March 2017, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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The trick is getting the mix right.
Of course socialism/communism need to be underpinned by the essence of capitalism, otherwise they'd be no one to vampire from. You have to give a man the illusion that what he creates is somewhat his otherwise he wont create anything to take.
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  #75  
Old 20th March 2017, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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Darwinsbulldog said View Post

So I am assuming if nothing substantial gets done before too long, it will be pitchforks in the streets, or worse, a vote for an Australian "Trump".

So basically, reasonably content people don't really go in for revolution, so long as a system isn't too unfair. If we let things get so bad that the revolution seems the only realistic option for the excluded, then, it will be civil war.

My agreement here could not be more robust. We need some really significant structural change to safeguard the best of what we have spent centuries creating.
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  #76  
Old 20th March 2017, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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...You have to give a man the illusion that what he creates is somewhat his otherwise he wont create anything to take.
I'm not sure i concur on that MikeJay. It seems a very strange thing to say actually especially when prefixed with the first sentence about the merits of capitalism. Perhaps you're reading too much Marx? I'd put Marx away if i were you, not relevant for the 21st century in my opinion, as i have argued here before.

For me the flaw in capitalism has nothing to do with owning the means of production, as the industrialist Marx argued, and everything to do with fair distribution for the tribe - that is, society. I'm all in for capitalism, its a profoundly successful economic system but quite obviously it needs to be harnessed to the welfare of the group - that is, society. At the moment, the reins are flapping in the breeze and the horses are half way to a vile revolution.
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  #77  
Old 20th March 2017, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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Of course socialism/communism need to be underpinned by the essence of capitalism, otherwise they'd be no one to vampire from. You have to give a man the illusion that what he creates is somewhat his otherwise he wont create anything to take.
It depends what one means by capitalism. If trade is not basically, fair, you can't have long term commerce. You can't rely on pandemics to re-balance the system again. [And if you did, the "cure" is just as bad, if not worse, than the "disease"].

Anyway, it is not the Dick Smith's of this world that cause the problem, it is the compounding of inherited wealth. [Via families or corporate inheritance].

If we use the term "governor" in a technical sense, it is a device that moderates the speed of the motor. That is what government should be.

That means kicking right [or left] wing butts from time to time, for the good of the whole community. The role of government is not to promote ideology Y or Z, but to actually provide good government.
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  #78  
Old 29th March 2017, 08:35 AM
wadaye wadaye is online now
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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Darwinsbulldog said View Post
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pipbarber said View Post
I liked your post #69 DB, where you brainstorm these ideas. I'm quite amenable to many of them but as you say above there are wrinkles so without meaning to be critical as such, but rather in a workshop mode, i think that giving away crown land is problematic on several fronts.

Environmental is the first one, people chopping down trees and clearing bush to build a dwelling. Secondly, people dont want to move too far away from their friends family, employment options entertainment etc.

I'm very skeptical about the concept of urban spread. I think its a bad thing generally. Population growth needs to go skyward, i reckon. Spreading people out fucks up the bush, creates pockets of terrible poverty and crime brought on by a lack of services, employment, education, public transport and diverse entertainment and social options. Whats more, everyone needs a fucking car to get anywhere.

Why couldnt you apply the same principle to skyward development? But not rundown shit heaps - decent apartments in well serviced areas.
Sure I agree that in many cases perhaps a govt donation of equity into a flat, rather than a land grant would be more feasible. Many of the "working poor" in Sydney [never mind the landless, unemployed poor] are disadvantaged, facing hours of commute time, etc.

But the purpose of this welfare is to get people in the system, not to get them everything they want or desire. Besides, vacant crown land is free, although there is an opportunity cost of not selling or leasing the land, and as you say, there will be environmental costs also.

But to quote Mao Zedong: "The people are the sea that the revolutionary swims in,..."

So I am assuming if nothing substantial gets done before too long, it will be pitchforks in the streets, or worse, a vote for an Australian "Trump".

So basically, reasonably content people don't really go in for revolution, so long as a system isn't too unfair. If we let things get so bad that the revolution seems the only realistic option for the excluded, then, it will be civil war.

Have a look and listen to this.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/...m-here/8379752

The system will absorb a whole lot more inequality and infliction of death before there is any revolt. Aborigines who revolt against injustice will continue to be suppressed.
I think the vote for trump is much more likely. Given the way Turnbull is lapdogging Trump on opposing the ban on nuclear weapoms i think we are already there
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