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  #11  
Old 1st April 2016, 07:08 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

I do admit that he is a one sides journalist on many issues but much of journalism is either by commission or omission. we do have to recognjse that sometimes hypocritical stances will be and even have to be taken at times. yet sometimes hypocrisy has to be criticised sharply. As for the Russian Ukranian story i do not doybt that Russia has been the principal aggressor, but there is always more than one narrative to a war.

PS John Pilger is not perfect but he has shone spotlights on dark secrets including this country.

iread his piece more as opinion than journalism.
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  #12  
Old 1st April 2016, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

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... we do have to recognjse that sometimes hypocritical stances will be and even have to be taken at times. yet sometimes hypocrisy has to be criticised sharply ...
No, wadaye.

With that logic, one can justify lying for jesus.

Wait ...
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  #13  
Old 1st April 2016, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

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... iread his piece more as opinion than journalism.
Opinion should not be impervious to facts, principle and reason.
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  #14  
Old 1st April 2016, 09:29 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

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No, wadaye.

With that logic, one can justify lying for jesus.

Wait ...
I recognise that I have some problems here in this thread.

However the point that sometimes we must support hypocrisy is real. It is hypocritical to try to curtail attempts to get usable nuclear weapons by North Korea. Yet the world becomes even more dangerous by Nth Korea getting them. the lines are far more blurry for Iran. What effort will me make to ensure Saudi Arabia does not get the bomb?
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Old 2nd April 2016, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

There has to be a way out of this absurd contemporary uptightness: nationalism, totalitarianism, fundamentalism, militarism.

It has to be education, free, universal and of the highest quality.

That and egalitarianism, political, social, economic.

Yes, I am an atheist lefty. Dyed in the wool.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

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No, wadaye.

With that logic, one can justify lying for jesus.

Wait ...
I recognise that I have some problems here in this thread.

However the point that sometimes we must support hypocrisy is real. It is hypocritical to try to curtail attempts to get usable nuclear weapons by North Korea. Yet the world becomes even more dangerous by Nth Korea getting them. the lines are far more blurry for Iran. What effort will me make to ensure Saudi Arabia does not get the bomb?
How is it hypocritical to try to stop North Korea obtaining nukes?

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  #17  
Old 2nd April 2016, 09:49 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

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How is it hypocritical to try to stop North Korea obtaining nukes?

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while possessing them oneself, and while not preventing other countries who are not party to the NPT from doing so
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Old 2nd April 2016, 01:41 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

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while possessing them oneself, and while not preventing other countries who are not party to the NPT from doing so
At some point someone has to ask, why is it ok for Israel, not a party to the NPT, to have nuclear weapons, and not NK?

This is not just a throwaway point, I have opinions on this as do we all, but it could vary from "they are friends of the Americans" to "they actually do require them for deterrent effect having been attacked by neighbours already."

No I don't think NK should have nukes, the same way I don't think street gangs should have guns, but there are people who I think shouldn't be restricted the same way, Olympic shooters for instance, farmers maybe, not wild game hunters though, but then that's an opinion of mine and maybe not everyone agrees with it.

Most people when asked whether NK should have nukes will immediately say no, but not necessarily be able to argue the point successfully when faced with the complexities of the current spread of nuclear weapons, however it doesn't mean they are wrong, I think they are right, but it's going to take a damn more words than a few hundred on a forum to explain why in any detail.
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  #19  
Old 2nd April 2016, 02:32 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

I am reminded of the argument by the NRA that it's not the gun it's the shooter that's the problem.

That argument only goes so far. Even if guns were more strictly limited to police, we still have racially profiled police shootings in Australia and the US. So what is the legitimate action of the person on the receiving end of this who inevitably has no recourse to the law?

To return to the question at hand, with the nuclear genie out of the bottle it inevitably is important who has access to them. But that number is only likely to increase over time. When it comes to who has them a line is obviously drawn against non-state actors. But the community of nations, supra-human organisms is also a community of unequals. How to determine which of these human constructions is capable for all time to handle the responsibility of weapons of mass destruction and which is not, and which states get to determine that, is the question.

So I believe that it is hypocritical to stop North Korea from getting usable nuclear weapons but necessary all the same, although stopping them may not be feasible without war in any case.
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  #20  
Old 2nd April 2016, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Vladimir Putin/ the Free World

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So I believe that it is hypocritical to stop North Korea from getting usable nuclear weapons but necessary all the same, although stopping them may not be feasible without war in any case.
For my money Garry Kasparov understands very well what must be done. Sanctions. Freeze immense wealth stashed in overseas accounts. Winter Is Coming 2015, is one hell of an absorbing read. Anyone, please do tell what you find to be heresy in his book. I see him as like a voice crying in the wilderness, as it would seem. I fully appreciate Putin and Putin's Russia, the oligarchs, the military is a giant problem. It won't just go away. He won't gradually embrace Western values by osmosis. Quite the opposite. And he is President forever.

I don't quote at length from texts, but to give you a taste, I will here and I'm sure others apprehend the import of this subject,


'When observing the West's conciliatory dealings with Russia during this period, a favourite quotation from Winston Churchill comes to mind: "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results." For five years President Bush had been talking about maintaining an open dialogue with Putin and about how hard he had worked to convince the Russian leader that "it's in his best interests to adopt Western values and universal values." This sounded quite reasonable, but we didn't have to go on theory. We had a track record to scrutinize and it was already clear that the strategy of discourse and appeasement toward Russia had failed.

By the time the G8 meeting came around it was long past time for Western leaders to take a harder stance if they wanted their rhetoric about promoting a democracy in Russia to have any credibility at all. The St. Petersburg summit offered the visiting heads of state a chance to see for themselves how bad things had become. If they had opened their eyes, the leaders who talked so often about receiving "mixed signals" from Russia would have seen that the only mixture that mattered was that of oil, money, and power.

Bush and Europe's leaders apparently believed it was best to disregard such things for the sake of getting Russia's cooperation on security and energy. But as Solzhenitsyn foretold, this cynical and morally repugnant stance has also proved to be an entirely ineffective one. Just like old times, Moscow has become an ally of troublemakers and anti democratic rulers around the world.
Nuclear aid to Iran, missile technology to North Korea, military equipment to Sudan, Myanmar, and Venezuela, making friends with Hamas; this was how Putin repaid the West for keeping its mouth shut about human rights in Russia for eight years.

And yet the G7 leaders refused to acknowledge that it was absurd to come to Russia for help with Iran, North Korea, or Hamas when the high energy prices the Putin administration required to keep its hold on power were driven by the tension that comes with every North Korean missile launch and each Iranian nuclear threat. Russia continued to block UN sanctions against these rogue states; the only mystery is why the West continued to treat Putin's Russia like an ally.'
Winter Is Coming, Why Vladimir Putin and the Enemies of the Free World Must Be Stopped.(pps. 157-158.)
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Last edited by Strato; 2nd April 2016 at 07:07 PM. Reason: mistakes
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