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  #51  
Old 28th May 2016, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

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Mechanised war is counter-evolutionary, if we take evolution as simply 'survival of the fittest.'
That would mean adapted or suited to the present environment.

Of course, machines themselves don't have a genetic component, so they are not selected for.

It's the human brain that's suited to the environment, but in this case humans create their own environment, and that is adapted to different laws than Biological ones.
If the humans that are capable of and inclined to build the machines and use them are selected for or against then the machines will be selected or not as well. Within the lineage of the machines (humans being their genes so to speak) the machines that better suit the humans that build and use them will prosper more than the designs that don't.
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History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
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  #52  
Old 28th May 2016, 01:01 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

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DanDare said View Post
If the humans that are capable of and inclined to build the machines and use them are selected for or against then the machines will be selected or not as well. Within the lineage of the machines (humans being their genes so to speak) the machines that better suit the humans that build and use them will prosper more than the designs that don't.
A technological selection. All machines are also necessarily restricted by physical laws as well.

We have to be cautious, however, as someone who designs a machine can then instantly be removed from the gene pool yet their machine can continue on disconnected from them, and be adapted by genetically unrelated people.

Similarly, humans are not under selection based on their machine building skills.
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  #53  
Old 28th May 2016, 01:45 PM
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

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Spearthrower said View Post
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DanDare said View Post
If the humans that are capable of and inclined to build the machines and use them are selected for or against then the machines will be selected or not as well. Within the lineage of the machines (humans being their genes so to speak) the machines that better suit the humans that build and use them will prosper more than the designs that don't.
A technological selection. All machines are also necessarily restricted by physical laws as well.

We have to be cautious, however, as someone who designs a machine can then instantly be removed from the gene pool yet their machine can continue on disconnected from them, and be adapted by genetically unrelated people.

Similarly, humans are not under selection based on their machine building skills.
That's a really interesting observation or two.

The thing the humans will have in common, at the least, is the ability to recognise and make use of the machines. If the humans lose that ability the machines become scenery.

[edit]I'm guessing there is a selection for humans that can make use of the machines, as opposed to those without the ability to do so.[/edit]
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Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.

Last edited by DanDare; 28th May 2016 at 01:46 PM.
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  #54  
Old 28th May 2016, 02:36 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

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DanDare said View Post
That's a really interesting observation or two.

The thing the humans will have in common, at the least, is the ability to recognise and make use of the machines. If the humans lose that ability the machines become scenery.
I've seen that kind of notion in a few post-apocalyptic sci-fi series.


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[edit]I'm guessing there is a selection for humans that can make use of the machines, as opposed to those without the ability to do so.[/edit]
I'm not really sure there is, or that there can be. I think there can only be selection for the type of brain which can make machines. However, such machines produce a benefit for all members of society, regardless of them possessing that type of brain.
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  #55  
Old 28th May 2016, 08:39 PM
wadaye wadaye is online now
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

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I've seen that kind of notion in a few post-apocalyptic sci-fi series.




I'm not really sure there is, or that there can be. I think there can only be selection for the type of brain which can make machines. However, such machines produce a benefit for all members of society, regardless of them possessing that type of brain.
Apparently chimps are pretty good with touchscreens.
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  #56  
Old 28th May 2016, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

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Spearthrower said View Post
A technological selection. All machines are also necessarily restricted by physical laws as well.

We have to be cautious, however, as someone who designs a machine can then instantly be removed from the gene pool yet their machine can continue on disconnected from them, and be adapted by genetically unrelated people.

Similarly, humans are not under selection based on their machine building skills.
Okay but in this situation is the machine continued and improved and therefore evolved in and of itself, such that the external influences aka other humans are part of the process.

Kinda like the environment might exert influence on development eg humans. I'm thinking of say Nobel, just because Nobel died explosives didn't stop being developed, they did. Also because Robert Cray died computers didn't stop evolving* they did (or they still are evolving?).

*I'd accept both the hardware and software here.

So is human endeavour a product of or of itself an evolutionary process?
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  #57  
Old 28th May 2016, 11:58 PM
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

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robertkd said View Post
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Spearthrower said View Post
A technological selection. All machines are also necessarily restricted by physical laws as well.

We have to be cautious, however, as someone who designs a machine can then instantly be removed from the gene pool yet their machine can continue on disconnected from them, and be adapted by genetically unrelated people.

Similarly, humans are not under selection based on their machine building skills.
Okay but in this situation is the machine continued and improved and therefore evolved in and of itself, such that the external influences aka other humans are part of the process.

Kinda like the environment might exert influence on development eg humans. I'm thinking of say Nobel, just because Nobel died explosives didn't stop being developed, they did. Also because Robert Cray died computers didn't stop evolving* they did (or they still are evolving?).

*I'd accept both the hardware and software here.

So is human endeavour a product of or of itself an evolutionary process?
At present the human products cannot evolve independently of the humans. Humans go, machines go with them.
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Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
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  #58  
Old 29th May 2016, 12:16 AM
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

Since the British Industrial Revolution took off after 1750, certainly by 1780, there has been accelerating development in every field of science, technology and design and in academia since, knowledge accretion. A juggernaut.

Clearly progress follows an evolutionary path where bad ideas get culled, though that's not as certain as occurs in nature. Donald Trump's total negation of climate change science as a hoax, a leftist conspiracy and his declaration to fully promote gas, oil and coal exploitation unregulated, is frightening, in that he is the presumptive Republican candidate. It bodes evil, a case of the sound, progressive environmental ideas and policy development getting thrown down, demoted, suppressed. Devolution.

But that surely can't happen.

Yet since the Industrial and technological revolution, there is undergoing sexual selection for certain kinds of intelligence and 'success' genes in the elite class. Disparity.

It is similar to the explanation given in The 10,000 Year Explosion, How Settled Civilisation Accelerated Human Evolution, where Cochoran and Harpending discuss the Ashkenazi Jews in Europe, how there was selection driven by the proscriptions imposed upon them by Christianity on the one hand and the insularity of Judaism on the other, social and cultural determinism, with intentional selection among the Ashkenazis for intelligence and excellence, for success in match-making, sexual selection.

The Jews were forbidden to farm and the Christians were forbidden to lend money for profit, 'usury'. If you were good at business and doing figures, you had a niche. The successful had big families, houses, good food and they also had their daughters educated. Maybe marriages were arranged.
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  #59  
Old 29th May 2016, 01:40 AM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: The Paradox of Evolution

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Okay but in this situation is the machine continued and improved and therefore evolved in and of itself, such that the external influences aka other humans are part of the process.
Indeed it did, but that evolution of design didn't come about by genetic changes in humans, offering different neural circuitry that gave them new insight into machine building.

The same brains evolved those designs as those which created its prototype.


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So is human endeavour a product of or of itself an evolutionary process?
In technological progress, I think there definitely is a type of evolution in process. Back in the Iron Age people had the brain structure, but not the knowledge, to build a car. They could build some things though, such as iron. Without that knowledge the next step couldn't have occurred, and the next and the next and so on, so cars today wouldn't exist had people not worked out how to process and shape iron.

But to eventually make cars, all those discoveries had to have happened in order to be redeployed for other usage. This underscores how history is contingent - our reality today is contingent on a billion occurrences of the past.
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