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  #141  
Old 13th January 2018, 02:53 PM
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Loki said View Post
<snip>

Note: This thread is being rather strictly moderated now. Any insult or personal attack, regardless of degree or rhetorical value will potentially attract sanction.
Roger! Read and acknowledged. Sorry, it was lost in the flood.
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  #142  
Old 13th January 2018, 03:12 PM
Boris Boris is offline
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Another small thought experiment: The Ship Of Theseus.

Under the fictional idea that Zoroastrianism, Xtianity, Judaism and Islam did start out with an identical "seed" god-notion, given divergent teaching, history and cultural paths, wouldn't those god-fictions be widely at variance with each other by now?

One has only to look at the schisms in Islam and Xtianity to see this tendency at work.

Has the Axe of God had 75 new handles and 23 new heads?
Fictional idea?

Mary Boyce knew nothing?
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  #143  
Old 13th January 2018, 03:14 PM
Boris Boris is offline
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Nope. All we are seeing is some cultural transfer and a bit of literary plagiarism. Boyce herself would make no stronger claim than that, and was careful to make a disclaimer to that effect.


As I said in the quote above, nobody denies influence. You appear to be claiming 100% sameness, and that will not wash without more definite proof.

You'd want a few academics in chorus, and no disclaimers.
Its much more than that but - deaf ears

again - your definition of "striking parallels" please

Last edited by Boris; 13th January 2018 at 03:20 PM.
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  #144  
Old 13th January 2018, 03:27 PM
Boris Boris is offline
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Nope. All we are seeing is some cultural transfer and a bit of literary plagiarism. Boyce herself would make no stronger claim than that, and was careful to make a disclaimer to that effect.


As I said in the quote above, nobody denies influence. You appear to be claiming 100% sameness, and that will not wash without more definite proof.

You'd want a few academics in chorus, and no disclaimers.
Hows this then:

LH Mills translated Zoroastrian text into English and he saw when he looked at Zoroastrianism "Our Own Religion in Ancient Persia" and he was a Christian Minister of Religion.

He saw that Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism was one and the same because he could read and translate (now he's dead) ancient Zoroastrian sacred religious texts and he understood it well.

https://www.amazon.com/Our-Religion-.../dp/0404128114

and he had a lot to say on the subject in his many books - some of which I have read and own.

https://www.amazon.com/Lawrence-Heyw...ne_cont_book_1

Zoroaster and the Bible

https://www.amazon.com/Zoroaster-Bib.../dp/B01IZLMU9O

Last edited by Boris; 13th January 2018 at 03:29 PM.
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  #145  
Old 13th January 2018, 03:40 PM
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Some content might be nice, Boris. Names are just names.

If you have any bits where the author says "This Zoroastrianism stuff, you know: it IS entirely the same as Christianity and I cannot tell the gods of both apart", then that would obviously be in your favour.
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  #146  
Old 13th January 2018, 04:41 PM
Boris Boris is offline
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You only have to look at the titles of his books.

Mills translated the stuff into English and was something of a genius.

Titles include:

Our own religion in Ancient Persia

that that pretty much says "This Zoroastrianism stuff, you know: it IS entirely the same as Christianity and I cannot tell the gods of both apart"

But what I am saying is THE GOD of both is the same - and as Mills was a Minister of Religion had a lot of understanding on the subject - Our own religion.

So Boyce and Mills - both eminent scholars and both saying the God of both religion is the same.

What is your definition of "striking parallels" by the way?

If the god of II Isaiah is the one the Christians worship and believe in and that god has "striking parallels" with the god of Yasna 44 that the Zoroastrians say is their god.

My conclusion is they worship the same god.

But the similarities between Judaism Christianity and Zoroastrianism are so many and so overwhelming and so easily seen I have no problems drawing that conclusion.

But my point is - the first imprint.

Now shall I talk about the other imprints?

If I did you would have no question that the Jewish Christian god is the Zoroastrian god. Well any reasonable person would come to that conclusion if they care to examine all the evidence - as contained in the books of Mills and Boyce.
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  #147  
Old 13th January 2018, 04:48 PM
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Boris, what you are writing above is, at least to me, neither a coherent argument, nor a convincing proof.

As I may have said before, content (what the author wrote) and context (its place in the entire text from which it springs, and the parent text's place in academic standing) are important.

Ownership of books, stating how many times one has read them, and ability to name their authors are not sufficient proof, at least to me.

However, I'll leave this stand, in case one of the others who read this has a different take, and may wish to add something.

For my part, I think I may wait a day or so to see if you produce some heretofore-unprecedented references.
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  #148  
Old 13th January 2018, 05:08 PM
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Can I just return to a point made by GM and others up thread.

These gods aren’t real. They are fictional characters, archetypes. Lord Voldemort is not Saron but i’m doubtful we’d have Voldemort if we’d never had Saron.

Mazda is not Yahweh but perhaps Yahweh wouldn’t exist without Mazda.

Ultimately they are different in so far as people worship them differently and a religion is nothing more than the sum of its parts.

It simply makes no sense to me as an atheist to say the God Mazda is in actual fact the same god as Yahweh. Though they are the same archtypal character I guess, they share qualities, as do Voldemort and Saron but beyond that aren’t we just dealing in forensic analysis of cultural accretion?
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  #149  
Old 13th January 2018, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Boris said View Post
You only have to look at the titles of his books.

Mills translated the stuff into English and was something of a genius.

Titles include:

Our own religion in Ancient Persia

that that pretty much says "This Zoroastrianism stuff, you know: it IS entirely the same as Christianity and I cannot tell the gods of both apart"

But what I am saying is THE GOD of both is the same - and as Mills was a Minister of Religion had a lot of understanding on the subject - Our own religion.

So Boyce and Mills - both eminent scholars and both saying the God of both religion is the same.

What is your definition of "striking parallels" by the way?

If the god of II Isaiah is the one the Christians worship and believe in and that god has "striking parallels" with the god of Yasna 44 that the Zoroastrians say is their god.

My conclusion is they worship the same god.

But the similarities between Judaism Christianity and Zoroastrianism are so many and so overwhelming and so easily seen I have no problems drawing that conclusion.

But my point is - the first imprint.

Now shall I talk about the other imprints?

If I did you would have no question that the Jewish Christian god is the Zoroastrian god. Well any reasonable person would come to that conclusion if they care to examine all the evidence - as contained in the books of Mills and Boyce.
You've got a very interesting obsession about identity going here. It really is fucking fascinating. Let me ask you a question: have you ever read any comics or recently seen a blockbuster movie?

I ask this as a sort of preamble, because it amuses me.

In the Marvel comics, and the recent movies, there exist gods. Specifically, the Norse gods of legend. Thor, Loki, Odin, the whole pantheon. Kit and kaboodle included.

Now, my question to you is simply this: are these superhero gods, extant as they are in an entirely fictional environment that exists exclusively to make money through pandering to the fantasy lives of modern audiences the same as - identical to - the gods worshipped by Ragnar Lothbroek? If you somehow managed to reach into the past and bring Ivar the Boneless to the here and now, would he say that the Thor that fights alongside Iron Man and Hulk is the Thor he knows?

I fucking doubt it. And we know full well that this Thor is cribbed directly from old Norse legends, and we can even track and point to all the myriad ways it's been fudged over the years to try to fit it into the Marvel superhero canon.

The point being that gods don't actually exist outside of the ideas in the heads of whoever is thinking about them, so the notion that the Christian god is the same as the Zoroastrian god is... well, essentially meaningless. Hell, I can't get two Christians to agree as to the precise attributes of the god they both purport to worship.

What you're proposing is that there exists an immutable being, or idea of a being, that is unambiguously shared by Zoroastrians, Jews, Muslims, and Christians. I have not the faintest idea why this fanciful notion is so important to you that you spend what seems to be immense emotional energy trying to convince some inconsequential strangers on the Internet of its veracity (interspersed with wild accusations name-calling). What on earth do you imagine the point to this whole exercise is?

That a bunch of god-ideas cross-pollinated is a trivial idea readily accepted and acknowledged. What I'm left wondering is what you seek to gain from this exercise? Why do you care that I think your arguments are at best spurious and at worst fucking idiotic?
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  #150  
Old 13th January 2018, 07:21 PM
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i keep wondering where i'm up to when I come back to this thread. Each page seems to keep repeating the same comments.
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